Watching Wind Flags

Hunter

Hunter

Chasin' the Sunset
It's not uncommon for several of my benchrest shots (at 100 and 200 yds.) to look like flyers, and I don't know the cause. Oftentimes, I see that regardless of the load.

One think I'm wondering about is my wind-flag watching technique — or lack thereof. I don't seem to be good at trying to watch all the flags at about the same time. At one time, I focused a lot on the farthest away flag, then a top-level shooter seemed to pooh-pooh that idea. Recently, I've been focusing a lot on the closest flag (sometimes I pretty much ignore the farther-away flags); now, another good shooter seems to say that he focuses on the farther-away flags.

I'm lost as it relates to those flyers. It's easy for me to think they're likely the result of combination of several issues. But, I wonder how y'all utilize your flags. Comments?
 
@Hunter :

You are pointing, IMO, at one of the very salt of BR.

I just had a hard day at the range last Thursday. First cession still November when I won 3xGold at regional's. Some 30 mph wind gusts, flag's ribbons playing cat tail / pointing up to the sky, condition was changing every second during my 100 yardage.

All the usual doubts surfaced as I was unable to shot consistently. Furthermore I had to zero the scope following a change in bullet/load. So, ... Am I shooting like a goat ? Is the scope broken ? Did I made something bad making that new lot of bullet ? The usual load is not working anymore ? WTF is happening ?

On my own, I am trying to consider an overall condition on the range and I am a Kentucky windage picker. Issue being that some windy/tempest day (with the flags nailed to the ground using 2 or 3 x 6" carpenter's nails, no condition seems to stand further than a 1/2 second.

In the afternoon, 200 yardage, wind was still strong BUT a bit more regular and I began by shooting 2 x 1 hole groups 2" from each other. WTF ? Bullet base/ogive variation ? Nayyyyyy ....

Depending on the wind force on the same direction, same flags position, bullets impacted 2" above and a bit on the right, while just a bit smaller/lower same condition was on axis.

I am shooting that range for a decade by now. Saw that effect 1 time before, only at 200.

Once I understood what was happening, smile went back on my face. The new bullet batch is good !! The scope is not broken !!! The load works. 1 hole group only.

Years ago, I clearly remember I had to shoot the 2 upper targets at 6 o'clock in the tire to punch a 10. No vertical correction needed on the 4 other targets. Incredible. They are just a few inches from each other. That's not logical. But so did it took place during a competition. Very ballthy correction. Lot of stress.

So .... First flag ? Last flag ? Mid Flag ? All the flags ? Depends on the day, depends on the on going condition, for sure depends on your understanding of what is taking place right now in front of you ... BR you know ... Dancing with the wind ... HBR : + dancing with the gun recoil.

I also never been a fan of the "wind flower", that sketch explaining bullet deviation considering wind direction. That is maybe OK for a computer or a US range in the Great Plains with a very regular wind meeting no obstacle, no turbulence. Here we have tiny ranges, with walls, berms, relief around ...

I do not consider myself as a champion neither do I consider I am holding any kind of Truth, but looking back at my 30 year BR shooting, the wind flower never appeared as a shining/divine revelation to me. That's a much more complicated story. Either you get a quick understanding of it, you are up in the results, or you don't understand, you shoot bad all day long trying this or that condition and end the day completely tired and disgusted.

BR ...



Got a friend in his 70's, know him for 30+ years. He his Hall of Fame here. I remember he has a booklet made with every information he collected on each range he had been shooting. Something like a 30+ years experience compilation. At this range, he knows he has to install the flags like this, with that condition look at that flag first, with this other condition look this one, and so on ... A hell of a job he did, and that seems paying considering his results for the last 30 years.
 
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In my opinion you can't go by watching one flag meaning first or last. Get that nonsense out of your head, no disrespect intended.
You have to watch all the flags obviously & the most important time is when you miss which flag showed it. Stay away from that.
Easy to say that but hard to do, especially if you don't have a flag in the "right" spot. If your shooting on the same range when these "fliers" happen its a good chance of this. Try a different separation, perhaps in front of, or behind a berm, near another obstacle, closer to the bench, or target, etc. Put more out there in addition to what you have. Something will show you eventually.
Case in point for me was at a rimfire,(I know different discipline) National the wind about all weekend was a hard left condition, which was shootable but I was getting rounds going where I was holding occasionally. Nothing showed this. On the last day I placed an additional flag 2 feet in front of the bench & it showed all I wanted to know as to why it was happening. No I didn't only pay attention to that 1 but stooped shooting when it was orange, lol. Did well.
Keith
 
linekin said:
In my opinion you can't go by watching one flag meaning first or last. Get that nonsense out of your head, no disrespect intended.
You have to watch all the flags obviously & the most important time is when you miss which flag showed it. Stay away from that.
Easy to say that but hard to do, especially if you don't have a flag in the "right" spot. If your shooting on the same range when these "fliers" happen its a good chance of this. Try a different separation, perhaps in front of, or behind a berm, near another obstacle, closer to the bench, or target, etc. Put more out there in addition to what you have. Something will show you eventually.
Case in point for me was at a rimfire,(I know different discipline) National the wind about all weekend was a hard left condition, which was shootable but I was getting rounds going where I was holding occasionally. Nothing showed this. On the last day I placed an additional flag 2 feet in front of the bench & it showed all I wanted to know as to why it was happening. No I didn't only pay attention to that 1 but stooped shooting when it was orange, lol. Did well.
Keith
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I've wondered about this. Would you wait until the ultra-close flag showed calm?
 
10ring said:
I've wondered about this. Would you wait until the ultra-close flag showed
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10ring said:
I've wondered about this. Would you wait until the ultra-close flag showed calm?
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I would have tried it on a sighter a few times to confirm. In my case then there was no calms. I was shooting at Fairchance which I was told could be a bear. Sure was, & if I hadn’t tried an additional flag where I suspected the problem was I’d have struggled again. Funny thing is as I had a bench flag that didn’t show it. 2 ft in front of the bench, different story.
 
When I first started shooting short range Benchrest 24 years ago, I would watch the first three flags on my bench. I would do OK, but seldom won an Agg or Grand. I loss sight in my right eye as a child, so I had to move my head off the gun to watch the flags. If it was twitchy, I got murdered. A great bulletmaker, Lowell Hottenstein, told me to watch the field, and pick a condition that comes (or goes) where I could run five shots on the record. As I became more comfortable with that technique, and with experience and confidence to hold based on the last shot, I started to win more frequently. Obviously, I‘m watching the flags as I’m loading my next round, and if I see a reverse or extremely push I’ll hold off and wait for my condition to come back. One more point, I learned to take the group the conditions presented to me. You’ll shoot better and win more by not shooting big. Take what the range gives you, and walk with a smile as you hear your name called to pick up wood. With 21 U.S. Benchrest Hall of Fame points, I can say with a level of confidence, the technique works!
Lee Hachigian
 
Lee, thanks for sharing the above. Query
Lee Hachigian said:
... watch the field, ... pick a condition that comes (or goes) where I could run five shots on the record. ... Obviously, I‘m watching the flags as I’m loading my next round, and if I see a reverse or extremely push I’ll hold off and wait for my condition to come back.
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Lee, thanks for sharing. Query:

1. When you're watching the field, I assume that means ALL of your flags, correct?
2. How fast do you typically "run" five shots?
3. Are you coming off the scope to watch the flags while you reload?
4. Please elaborate on your technique relative to # 3.
 
I've only been shooting for a couple years, so my flag reading technique is well behind some others here, but in response to your question, the flag that demands the most attention can change depending on the range you're shooting. There are 3 ranges in the eastern Region that have a strong current between 70-100yds, and not watching those flags can be a real problem. My home practice range, while nice, is candyland compared to Western Wayne County. The first 2 flags are the only one's that move! The rest are all protected by berms. My home range is hard to learn much on.
 
Hunter said:
Lee, thanks for sharing the above. Query

Lee, thanks for sharing. Query:

1. When you're watching the field, I assume that means ALL of your flags, correct?
2. How fast do you typically "run" five shots?
3. Are you coming off the scope to watch the flags while you reload?
4. Please elaborate on your technique relative to # 3.
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When Lee says watching the field, he means all of the flags on all of the benches. He is looking for wind trends sweeping across the whole range. Think of watching a big wheat field and seeing the way the varying wind is moving across the field in waves. Look for the dominant condition that seems to be the most consistent and try shooting that.

With practice, you can scan the whole range and see a pick-up, let-up or switch coming before it even gets to your bench. It's easy to get tunnel vision and only look at your flags, but practice seeing the bigger picture and you will probably see some improvement.
 
Hunter said:
Lee, thanks for sharing the above. Query

1. When you're watching the field, I assume that means ALL of your flags, correct?
2. How fast do you typically "run" five shots?
3. Are you coming off the scope to watch the flags while you reload?
4. Please elaborate on your technique relative to # 3.
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#1: I watch the entire range, within reason. Big ranges like St. Louis makes it a little easier for you to see a let-up coming and how long they stay before they get to your bench. Small ranges with berms, like WWWCA, are tough for me also. I may win a few aggs there just because I practice and shoot there more then any other range. Kelbly’s range and St. Louis were/are my favorites. Holton is similar, but the mirage makes that range difficult for me.
#2: I don’t know how long it takes me to shoot 5 rounds, but normally I don’t hesitate to get them down range quickly.
#3 & #4: Yes, I do come off the stock to load. Remember, with only one effective eye I have to shoot this way. As I’m loading, I’m observing the wind flags on my bench/lane and if I don’t see a major change in intensity, I let the next round fly and holding based on where the previous shot hit, if necessary. Again, I’m not trying to shoot the smallest group of the relay. I will take what the range will give me. As Lowell always said, “Agg them to death”.

As to watching the first few flags on your bench, I agree they are more important than those downrange. I don’t like starting my groups when the first flag is active (unless that’s all the range is giving you).
 
Lee Hachigian said:
...
#3 & #4: Yes, I do come off the stock to load. ... As I’m loading, I’m observing the wind flags on my bench/lane and if I don’t see a major change in intensity, I let the next round fly and holding based on where the previous shot hit, if necessary.
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Lee, do you feel that you oftentimes get caught with the wind changing between the time you look at the flags and the time you "let the next round fly"? If so, what do you do to try to mitigate that issue?
 
I get caught often with a switch that occurs as I re-focus back on the gun and scope. That’s why I put more effort watching the range and picking the absolute best condition I see where I can put five rounds downrange. I have no problem starting my group with one minute left (I don’t like doing it, but I will).
 
Lee Hachigian said:
#3 & #4: ... holding based on where the previous shot hit, if necessary.
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I should have included the following in post # 12 above, but ...

Can you elaborate on the "if necessary" part of your comment? Please don't let the following question affect your response to the previous question — but, regardless of what prompted a "necessary" adjustment, I assume the group has already enlarged; thus, what's to be accomplished by adjusting your hold?

BTW, thanks a bunch for weighing-in on this thread. :)
 
…when I try to shoot fast, I watch the flags on my bench (and those on both sides) with the quickest glance as I’m loading. If they look similar (same relative direction and intensity) to when I started, I don’t hold (i.e., cross hair is at 6 O’clock in the mothball). If my previous shot hit the one before it, I’m good with that at 100 yards. If a competitor can shoot all small 0.2xx at 100 yards, in many matches you will place in the top ten. I hold more at 200 yards based on the previous round. However, if the two shots have only a bullet gap between them, I don’t hold. Again, if you can shoot five half inch groups at 200 yards, you will place well in the yardage. Remember my thought process is, don’t try to shoot small, just make sure you don’t shoot big. I don’t remember where it was, but I won a 2-Gun in a cash option match without placing in the top three in any target. I walked away with the trophy, but I had no extra cash to buy a beer with it, LOL! One more point, I practice to shoot as fast as can “under control”.
 
for shooting at 100 yards where do you place your wind flags at.also i hear some talk on hummer barrels that shoot through the wind.i unders stand that has something to do about the bullets going to sleep closer to the muzzel verse further out from the muzzel.what are your thoughts on this also.
 
g n brezinski said:
for shooting at 100 yards where do you place your wind flags at.also i hear some talk on hummer barrels that shoot through the wind.i unders stand that has something to do about the bullets going to sleep closer to the muzzel verse further out from the muzzel.what are your thoughts on this also.
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For shooting at 100 yards, I place flags at 20, 40, 60, and 80 yards. For 200 yards, I place them at 20, 40, 75, 110, and 150. At some ranges (like St. Louis), you may want your first flag around 10 closer (and all the others closer). At Fairchance, I like one more flag for 200 yards.

I don’t necessarily believe in hummer barrels that shoot through changes in conditions. However, I do believe a well tuned barrel and bullet combination will not cause as large of a change in POI with changing conditions. I spend a lot of time fine tuning my load and seating depth. I don’t like practicing in calm conditions because it gives you a false sense of “tune” security.
 
You might try using an anemometer at your bench to give you a sense of general wind effect. I use a Kestrel (brand) I bought to shoot PRS rimfire on big open ranges. I have it outfitted for variable wind direction and on a small tripod. It connects to ballistic software on my iPhone and iPad. It helped me understand the change of impact point for various distances and wind speeds. I watched my flags down range while comparing them to the ballistic software's output. Other shooters use omnidirectional anemometers on their bench. A few shooters use them down range attached to their wind flag(s).
Also, with an anemometer, you can "calibrate" your wind flag's tail: Set up a fan (I have a couple of commercial ones) on high speed and measure the velocity. Then place a wind flag with a tail in the airstream. If you use a ribbon (Walmart) you can clip the length of the ribbon to calibrate it to the fan's airstream. I set mine at six mph (8.8 fps). On the range if a ribbon is out flapping, I don't shoot until all of the flags match direction and velocity. If the flags point in all different directions but the tails all droop, I shoot because the air is still. Propellers or daisy-wheels are fine but in my opinion, it's the tail that tells the story. I pay no attention to the spinning (distraction) propellers.
Reading the wind is both an art and a science. It takes time. Study conditions. It's more than wind sometimes. My Kestrel is more than an anemometer, so I get a lot of other info besides wind which can change the flight of the bullet. Hope this is helpful.
 
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