VFS thread

[mwezell]

Keith, this is obviously a continuation of Lou's thread, where he was looking for ways to bring in more shooters. Like it or not, UBR is working with it's modified approach to score shooting. Those concepts were brought to reality by Danny Hensley, the man who started UBR. Not mentioning that while discussing options wouldn't be right IMO. This isn't UBR vs. IBS/NBRSA. It's sharing concepts that UBR is using...successfully, to add substantiated and meaningful information to the original topic. Yes, I like shooting and support UBR, but I'm also an IBS member and I like and support them as well. I don't see this as agrandizing UBR..simply pointing out what is already being done AND has evidence of increasing participation. So happens, that it took another organization to make it reality in a timely fashion, for obvious reasons, but not giving them credit, where due, would be wrong. ---Mike Ezell

 

[Pete Wass]

What might be interesting Rick Is to quantify how many new shooters UBR has attracted. How many new shooters have come forward because they though the format being more fair to them?

The Factory Rifle theory and arguement has been around for the 18 years I have been competing. Before my involvement in IBS I ran some Factory Rifle matches and saw all those things Dick outlined. Guys with money will buy what will win, which will eventually discourage those who don't have the dough to keep buying rifles. From my experience, the so called Factory Class is a nieve notion. It's a nice thought but difficult to deal with.

Eventually, even those in the specialized classes end up with rifles honed well enough so that there is little competition. The only way to have a true Factory Class would be for a Club to buy a dozen rifles and not allow anything to be done to them. The Club buy and sell Factory Made ammo and it become the luck of the draw. This beomes equally as dumb as the rest of it eventually.

Bottom line, from my experience, is most people who would be the So called Factory Shooter will not last as a competitor. Competition is another level from shooting. Not many people in our population are cometitors. Many are shooters but there are a heck of a lot more Basters than anything else. I think the AR experiment @ IBS prooved that.

 

[Bob Kingsbury]

Bob
You are getting off the topic of this thread which is VFS but since you went there I have a couple of comments the big problem with registering factory guns is enforcement of the rules you would like to develop. There are always people who want to stretch the rules if they can get away with it, and in Factory rifles it's hard to be sure something is original. I know of people going so far as to have custom barrels made and identical markings installed with same dimensions as original factory barrel.
Then another facet is Coopers, Sako's similar high dollar limited production factory rifles, are these Factory, or are they not, you will get a lot of argument on both sides of that subject.
As to success of Woodchuck/Groundhog shoots in the East, since they have no sanctioning body there are no national rules to be followed. I shoot a lot of these matches and one of the drawbacks in my mind which is a good thing in other people's mind is "local rules" they are what they are and if you don't like them don't come back but I have seen several cases I did not feel the rules were fair but they are what they are. And as I enjoy them I come back when I can.

Dick, I don't believe I am off topic. I believe Lou opened the door for improving the turnouts , by making this sport more
attractive.
I use the term Factory, but out of the box is full of problems. As you mention and I agree,some will go to no end to get that
advantage. I have been on the rules comitee for a number of clubs, and there is always an issue with coopers, 40X's and so on.
I would be more inclined to allow custom barrels allowing people to upgrade, rather than dropping out because their Remchester
no longer shoots and they can't find another. Or better yet, the never ending search for a better gun.
Along with barrels, let them use 2 oz triggers and what ever scope. I would maybe require that the stock forearm be round,
not simply convex, and typically of a hunting nature.
None of that requires much verification, but allows new shooters to improve their equiptment . This leaves improvements
to skill and doesn't break anyones piggy bank, while allowing as many to compete as possible. make the rules simple but
limited. Out of the box is very rare and at best, is a one time shot.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

I use the term Factory, but out of the box is full of problems. As you mention and I agree,some will go to no end to get that
advantage. I have been on the rules comitee for a number of clubs, and there is always an issue with coopers, 40X's and so on.
I would be more inclined to allow custom barrels allowing people to upgrade, rather than dropping out because their Remchester
no longer shoots and they can't find another. Or better yet, the never ending search for a better gun.
Along with barrels, let them use 2 oz triggers and what ever scope. I would maybe require that the stock forearm be round,
not simply convex, and typically of a hunting nature.

Good grief that is not even close to being a factory class in my mind. You want full custom except action!

 

[Greyfox]

Pete,
I probably shouldn't answer you since Mr Myers has already got his drawers in a twist about my introduction of UBR in the thread, but I'll chance it.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking we had eight new shooters that all shot Factory class at Gallatin. I can't speak for the other ranges, Danny would need to address that. Of that eight six became regulars and a couple of them quickly moved into Custom Class. I will partially agree with you about competitors. If a person doesn't care for competition he won't last long. But the Factory class allows a person to get their feet wet without spending major bucks to try the game. Some will get the bug, some won't. I don't see any of the current UBR clubs buying rifles. We aren't wealthy. Also, I don't see the scenario where folks would buy in multiple rifles and/or cheat for the advantage in Factory Class. There just isn't that much glory in winning Factory Class.

We've been playing the Factory Class game for years at Buck Creek (where you visited). There are probably a few folks pushing the envelope (but then like NASCAR says, "if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'"), but really we're a fairly honorable bunch. Coopers and Sako's are included in Factory and have won some matches, but it looks like Danny Hensley will take the Factory Class award this season with a bone stock Remington 223. I've won at Gallatin with a stock Savage a couple of times.

I see Factory Class as an entry level kind of thing. Some will drop out and others will get bitten by the accuracy bug and get a Custom rifle. I'm having fun in Modified Class with an ancient sleeved 722 in .222. The thing is, if you aren't in a hot area, VFS isn't in a healthy situation. At Gallatin, without UBR we wouldn't have had enough shooters to pay expenses. By running a combined IBS/UBR match we had a good season. I'm not in any way trying to get people to drop IBS in favor of UBR. But folks should be informed that there is more than one way to make things work.

again...apologies to Mr Myers for hijacking the thread,

Rick

 

[Bob Kingsbury]

Good grief that is not even close to being a factory class in my mind. You want full custom except action!

No, not at all. Given a rounded forearm, it could not be shot free recoil, or looking over the scope. It
would require a very even grip shot to shot. It would also allow improvements in precision loading. It sends
no one home, or back to the gunshop. It also brings them that much closer to a true BR gun. It further
does away with cheating, as you can verify simply by looking that the gun is like something you would
hunt with. Obviously, if someone had a factory stock with an 1 1/4 in straight barrel on it, they would have
issues of there own. Maybe add a weight limit. Don't make rules you can't verify. It will limit itself.

 

[Charles E]

There just isn't that much glory in winning Factory Class.

Right, as log as it's club level. Suppose it was formal, and there was a National Champion?

BTW, My "factory class" rifle isn't legal in UBR. It is put together from pieces -- all factory, but not all from one purchased rifle. The barreled action from one Savage, the stock from another, & a few odds and ends I have no idea which belongs to which. Real cheap of me, I know.

Not a problem for me, I just wouldn't shoot it. Might be for someone who didn't have anything else.

But we digress -- I'm not in favor of a Factory Class beyond the club level.

 

[Charles E]

No, not at all. Given a rounded forearm, it could not be shot free recoil, or looking over the scope.

Um, I shoot my factory Savage .223 free recoil. Wood stock, but not a BR model -- a 112, actually. It does have a 6-ounce trigger though.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Coopers and Sako's are included in Factory and have won some matches, but it looks like Danny Hensley will take the Factory Class award this season with a bone stock Remington 223.

Danny Hensley is a heckuva shooter no matter what rifle you put in his hands.

 

[mike in co]

ibs shot themselves in the foot with the ar rules...build the rules wrong and they will not come....
it incorperated rules that are not used for boltguns, thus restricting the ar's beyond the bolt guns....dumb, just plain dumb.
mike in co

Bottom line, from my experience, is most people who would be the So called Factory Shooter will not last as a competitor. Competition is another level from shooting. Not many people in our population are cometitors. Many are shooters but there are a heck of a lot more Basters than anything else. I think the AR experiment @ IBS prooved that.

 

[Charles E]

Notice B. J. Atkinson's reply:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?80560-UKBRA-changes-the-rules

In a way, this is the perfect solution, where much of the developmental work is done by the clubs. There is only so much a National or International body can do. Basis of the conservative argument on government: National governing bodies should be small, attempting to resolve only those things that can't be handled at the local level. (I say this as an observation about typical arguments, I'm not advocating any political position.) In benchrest, look at all the complaints when the National Bodies tries to address issues -- you need to look no further than this thread.

Yet we tend to Catch-22 ourselves in the States. Another common complaint is if a match isn't sanctioned, complete with SOY points, the "serious" shooters won't come.

* * *

I started shooting benchrest at local matches, and after all these years, know that the only arena I can possibly compete in at the National level is 1,000 yards. But I still enjoy shooting other benchrest sports, and have lately discovered that club matches give me everything I want out of group, score, and rimfire. I'd think something like that is true for most of us, including the people who post to this forum.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out many of the things that keeps people in the sport between that first moment of enjoyment and a mature realization of that enjoyment.

So a Notion: The course of fire at the national level (and international level, if it ever gets that far) is what makes the most sense for shooters at that level. The sanctioning bodies have a responsibility to promote or maintain that. Both the clubs and individuals also have a responsibility for the well-being of the sport. Can't leave it up to the "federal sanctioning body."

One of the things I've always admired about Wayne Campbell, for example, is he shows up & competes at the many small regional matches, and when he's there, takes the time to talk to people & answer questions.

So here is an extension of that notion: if a club is holding matches that aren't sanctioned, they can do whatever they feel best fits their needs. Presumably getting more participation is good for the club's coffers as well as helping the sport grow. Try what's been shown to work; add new ideas & try them out too.

 

[Greyfox]

Right, as log as it's club level. Suppose it was formal, and there was a National Champion?

BTW, My "factory class" rifle isn't legal in UBR. It is put together from pieces -- all factory, but not all from one purchased rifle. The barreled action from one Savage, the stock from another, & a few odds and ends I have no idea which belongs to which. Real cheap of me, I know.

Not a problem for me, I just wouldn't shoot it. Might be for someone who didn't have anything else.

But we digress -- I'm not in favor of a Factory Class beyond the club level.

Charles,
You bring up one of the issues we plan to discuss during the off season. I, for one, would like to see a rifle like you have still be "factory class legal". Actually, I think your rifle would qualify as long as the barrel has not been swapped. The rules aren't exactly clear on that point, but it has been talked about. Since the rules for all the rifles are minimal sometimes you have to ask questions. Maybe Danny will have something to say on this thread sooner or later. The big issue, with mainly Savages, is the ease of changing barrels. Danny didn't want folks to be able to get a large # of barrels and swap until they found one that worked. My thinking is that very, very few would bother with that. If one is an accuracy freak, they will just get a custom. Anyway, you still have to shoot.

Also, I really don't see a problem with the same on a National level. The thing is, to make entry level attractive, you have to make allowances. Will there be abuses? Probably. But most folks who want to compete will move into custom class. The UBR first season will end on Saturday. After that Danny & the match directors can discuss what worked and what needs tweeking. I have some suggestions, but I could live with things just as they are.

Rick