Jim Bailey
Member
Juenke
I'm so confused after reading all this I think I'll just sell mine!!
I'm so confused after reading all this I think I'll just sell mine!!
Vern juenke machine
- Thread starter Lou Murdica
- Start date
"I once tested 1000 custom bullets for a shooter in California. Not one bullet in the 1000 went over 4 D.U.! That bullet maker got a really good lot of jackets on that order.
Vern S. Juenke"
Seems that tells the tale of what the machine is looking at.....or seeing. WHICH, is what I thought all along so I never bought one. Not because I didn't want one but because I knew I would never take the time to use it. Certainly, it could be seeing something else but that's what I always thought...?? What else could it be measuring?
Vern S. Juenke"
Seems that tells the tale of what the machine is looking at.....or seeing. WHICH, is what I thought all along so I never bought one. Not because I didn't want one but because I knew I would never take the time to use it. Certainly, it could be seeing something else but that's what I always thought...?? What else could it be measuring?
Lou Murdica
Member
Hold on Jim
I have someone that is going to tell me
Exactly what it does.
When he's done it will be worth something
Or worth nothing.
I have someone that is going to tell me
Exactly what it does.
When he's done it will be worth something
Or worth nothing.
.
Hi Lou, my favorite and what I believe is the most accurate description of the Juenke machine was posted on this messageboard back in 2001 by a professional engineer and br competitor, describing the machine to consist of an;
"oscillator circuit (a sine wave generator) that has its frequency controlled by an inductor coil, the coil is located under the bullet, case or whatever is put on the machine. The coil is energized by the circuit and has a flux field around it. Any interference to that field causes a change of frequency of the oscillator. The meter reading varies with the frequency of the circuit and is actually a measurement of the current consumed by the circuit, the more the flux field variation around the coil, the more the meter moves.
The device measures changes in the flux field of the oscillators' coil. There are several ways to effect that field; the jacket thickness in the immediate area of the coil can have an effect, also; metallurgical differences in the jacket material, core density, voids, compressions, lube, etc."
Hi Lou, my favorite and what I believe is the most accurate description of the Juenke machine was posted on this messageboard back in 2001 by a professional engineer and br competitor, describing the machine to consist of an;
"oscillator circuit (a sine wave generator) that has its frequency controlled by an inductor coil, the coil is located under the bullet, case or whatever is put on the machine. The coil is energized by the circuit and has a flux field around it. Any interference to that field causes a change of frequency of the oscillator. The meter reading varies with the frequency of the circuit and is actually a measurement of the current consumed by the circuit, the more the flux field variation around the coil, the more the meter moves.
The device measures changes in the flux field of the oscillators' coil. There are several ways to effect that field; the jacket thickness in the immediate area of the coil can have an effect, also; metallurgical differences in the jacket material, core density, voids, compressions, lube, etc."
Lee Martin
Active member
Thanks Don. That explanation clears it up a bit. I doubt I'll ever get into one but the Juenke makes for some interesting discussion.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Core seating and pointing setup? It's easy to wreck a good jacket
al
Not really that easy now that you mention it...or conversely, easy enough to sell crooked bullets. Either way I suppose. Hey! If you had one of those Verne Juenke machines, you would know whether you were making bullets good enough to shoot yourself!
Now that I think about it, you probably can sell every bullet you could possibly make...good or bad...as long as they looked good. I remember 'Muskrat' returned some one time because he measured something that wasn't just right. I gave some of the same to another fellow and he won the 4 Gun there at Charlotte that same weekend shooting them. I can tell you that the fellow brought back what was left and stated once again that he just left his bullets home. Hell fire! I was afraid to shoot my own bullets after that episode. Wish I could remember that fellow's name........gimme a minute........................................................ROGER AVERY...that's the fellow!
Charles - I knew it was your rifle I was shooting. I just didn't know if you wanted me to mention your name. That was a big wind I got hit with (prolly not a BIG wind) wasn't it? That I had no experience (any) shooting 1000yds prolly didn't have anything to do with it. Conversely, I shot a 1000yd match at the end of last year and hit the target every time! It was one of those things where you lay on your belly and shoot what seems like forever. I shot 10s until I found myself aching all over (all over), at which time I thought it better just to get it over with. It was Keith Gantt's rifle and as good as it gets for that purpose...or any purpose I suppose.
Now, back to the Vern Juenke deal!
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
How do I think the infernal Mr. Juenke machine works, I think!
After borrowing a 1991 produced Juenke machine, tool, contraption or whatever it is (he refers to it as an I.C.C. unit) and reading the 6 pages of instructions that came with this one, the following link describes what probably is the operating principal. If you are interested in reading all that, have at it.
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/cc_ut_index.htm
As to the details of benefit and practicality of the Juenke machine, that may take a while.
So far I have spun some 12 lots of benchrest bullets, about 20 different commercial brands/types, and 8 different commercial jackets that had not been made into bullets. All samples have has different "null" points and most all have had different Deviation Sensitivity readings. (Mr. Juenke described each line on the 0-50 gage as a Deviation Unit, each deviation unit being about 0.0003" of something in one of the sensitivity setting ranges.)
Edit-a clone of the Juenke machine is still being made for anyone interested;
http://bulletinspector.com/products.htm
After borrowing a 1991 produced Juenke machine, tool, contraption or whatever it is (he refers to it as an I.C.C. unit) and reading the 6 pages of instructions that came with this one, the following link describes what probably is the operating principal. If you are interested in reading all that, have at it.
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/cc_ut_index.htm
As to the details of benefit and practicality of the Juenke machine, that may take a while.
So far I have spun some 12 lots of benchrest bullets, about 20 different commercial brands/types, and 8 different commercial jackets that had not been made into bullets. All samples have has different "null" points and most all have had different Deviation Sensitivity readings. (Mr. Juenke described each line on the 0-50 gage as a Deviation Unit, each deviation unit being about 0.0003" of something in one of the sensitivity setting ranges.)
Edit-a clone of the Juenke machine is still being made for anyone interested;
http://bulletinspector.com/products.htm
Last edited:
Lou, per your observation I ran a set of deltronic pin gauges across my own Juenke machine and got similar results for many of the pins that I inspected, those that did show variations I noticed they contained large excentric areas between the ground ends, in the unmachined caste centers, which were probably detected by the sensor fields giving the variation meter readings.
vern juenke machine
I don't know how anyone could make crooked bullets. I guess some could if there was a need for them.
Maybe throw them on the floor and roll them around with your feet, or something, like that.
The dies we have today are simply great, and even the ones that were made well over 50 years ago.
I don't know how anyone could make crooked bullets. I guess some could if there was a need for them.
Maybe throw them on the floor and roll them around with your feet, or something, like that.
The dies we have today are simply great, and even the ones that were made well over 50 years ago.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Crooked bullets? Interesting related article on another site;
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html
It ain't about crooked but the bulletmakers I know are anal about temp, lube, degreasing, general cleanliness to the point that I'll NEVER be tempted to make bullets. 
Folds, voids, gaps, grease pockets, debonding......all things the Juenke _may_ be picking up on. It sure isn't anything I can measure.
I'm not even convinced it's important but IT DOES PICK UP SOMETHING
over and over and over.
I dunno nuttin' about "warmup" and stuff I just know that I can put a bullet on the spinner 10yrs later and get the same reading.
Folds, voids, gaps, grease pockets, debonding......all things the Juenke _may_ be picking up on. It sure isn't anything I can measure.
I'm not even convinced it's important but IT DOES PICK UP SOMETHING
over and over and over.
I dunno nuttin' about "warmup" and stuff I just know that I can put a bullet on the spinner 10yrs later and get the same reading.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Well, lets see. If being unclothed can be naked or nekkid.
Being naked is not having any clothes on, while being nekkid is not having any clothes on and being up to something.
Having unstraight bullets can be whopperjawed, skantlin', bent over, bent around, or what else?
Just don't use crooked, it is un PC!!
(I'm still working on the Juenke thimmiger)
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Wow, there are a lot of things we disagree on, me and Mr Barsness
LOL
al
He's not that far off really when you live in his world. He is coming from the Guns & Ammo/Shooting Times world where SAAMI is the norm. Commercial guns and ammunition where the SAAMI tolerances can be as much as 0.010"-0.012" between Maximum Chamber and Minimum Cartridge. In that world "crooked" does exist and straight makes a difference.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Still spinning
I'm still spinning bullets from two popular bullet makers. Much different null points probably since one batch of bullets are on Sierra 810 jackets and the other is on J4 825 jackets. It is going to take some time to really see if this ICC sorting is worth it on high quality, hand made, benchrest bullets.
Couple of items so far that I am fairly certain of;
1) The Juenke machine is a "comparator" not a finite measuring system. To me a comparator compares sample A to sample B, nuff said.
(And, that is what the ICC purports to be, a comparator.)
2) I would have more confidence in the operating process of this machine if it operated on eddy current rather than on sonic waves. I just
think that an electronic field offers more precise control than a sound wave generator. Don't take that opinion to the bank since that is
simply how I feel comparing the two operating principals.
I'm still spinning bullets from two popular bullet makers. Much different null points probably since one batch of bullets are on Sierra 810 jackets and the other is on J4 825 jackets. It is going to take some time to really see if this ICC sorting is worth it on high quality, hand made, benchrest bullets.
Couple of items so far that I am fairly certain of;
1) The Juenke machine is a "comparator" not a finite measuring system. To me a comparator compares sample A to sample B, nuff said.
(And, that is what the ICC purports to be, a comparator.)
2) I would have more confidence in the operating process of this machine if it operated on eddy current rather than on sonic waves. I just
think that an electronic field offers more precise control than a sound wave generator. Don't take that opinion to the bank since that is
simply how I feel comparing the two operating principals.
M
Millbo
Guest
The machine uses ultrasound to measure the jacket thickness just as you would use ultrasound to measure the wall thickness of tubes or pipes.
A little googling turned up this site: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Basic Kit.htm
I guess you can buy the parts to one and build it yourself.
A friend of mine had one and I watched him use it and it does register deviations in jacket thicknesses. Being lead is denser than copper is how I guess it sees where the inner jacket is.
That's my best guess...
Mike
A little googling turned up this site: http://www.bulletinspector.com/Basic Kit.htm
I guess you can buy the parts to one and build it yourself.
A friend of mine had one and I watched him use it and it does register deviations in jacket thicknesses. Being lead is denser than copper is how I guess it sees where the inner jacket is.
That's my best guess...
Mike