Unsure about my annealing results

N

noone

Guest
I'm not sure if I over annealed my cases. I took great care to not heat up the lower half of the cases, but I fear that the necks may be too soft. They seem really soft and don't seem to have much springback.

As I like my face arranged the way nature intended it, I am strongly in favor of safety over being too cheap to toss out ruined cases. I know that any cases where the lower portion got heated need to be discarded, but I'm not sure how to proceed if I suspect that only the case necks got over annealed.

I am conservative where reloading and safety are concerned, but am understandably reluctant to throw out a bunch of Lapua cases if they can be salvaged.

1. How can I tell if the necks are too soft?
2. If they are too soft, what will be the result of using them?
3. Is there a "cut off" point below which cases can be used, and above which they cannot?
If so, what is that point?

I know how to heat treat and temper knives. The combination of temperature, time, and quench are pretty straight forward. But I was unable to find such data for annealing cartridge cases.

4. What is the target temperature and time for effective annealing of case necks?

Thanks very much.
 
I don't think I am able to correctly describe how to test the springback with a pair of vise grips. Ken Light does it and it may be on the 6BR page. There are several folks who know and and can maybe give it to you here.

I can tell you that you can work harden the brass by expanding it and running it through the sizing die again. If you do this several times, it will quickly harden. What is it that makes you think you oever annealed? If you only got the necks a little soft, it's unlikely that you ruined the rest of the case. What color is the brass now?

Rick
 
Here's a link to the annealing article on 6mmBR.com:

Annealing

It's probably the most comprehensive that I've found on the net.

Can you deform the neck with just your fingers? If so, you probably went too far.


Jerry
 
Are you talking about .262 ppc brass? It doesnt take very darn long to heat those thin necks. I also use a small pair of vise grips to check for spring back. My smith showed me how to do this. It isnt hard to do, but i am not good with words so i am more than sure i would have you total confused if i tried to explain how i check. I will however tell you one thing i do, i dont know if it is right or wrong, but it is how i do it. I turn 80% of the lights off in my loading room so i can see when the brass is just starting to glow. If the lights were on you wouldnt see it in time. Thats my only tip. Good luck and practice on some cheep brass you dont mind ruining. I use lake city 223 to practice with. Lee
 
The one thing I want to ask is... in that article the machine just drops them in a box or whatever but the other part of the article talks about dropping the cases into a water bucket.

Water or no water whats the difference. I know in tempering other metals it makes a great deal of diff and can actually give opposite results.

I used to hear that some would set the cases up in a pan filled with water to the proper height on the cases, water inside also. This way it kept from over heating the bottoms of the cases. Is this method still used.
 
Vern said:
The one thing I want to ask is... in that article the machine just drops them in a box or whatever but the other part of the article talks about dropping the cases into a water bucket.

Water or no water whats the difference. I know in tempering other metals it makes a great deal of diff and can actually give opposite results.

I used to hear that some would set the cases up in a pan filled with water to the proper height on the cases, water inside also. This way it kept from over heating the bottoms of the cases. Is this method still used.
Click to expand...

I use a "ring of fire" and tip the cases over into water to anneal my cases. That way I cannot over-anneal. w/ the cassehead standing in water, you will see bubbles forming at the water-line long before you get the brass too hot
 
noone, 700* is the temp that you are looking for. Midway sells a product called "Tempilaq", it is a liquid that will change color when its target temp is reached. You want to buy the 700* stuff, put it on the INSIDE of the neck, then heat the neck till the color changes.

Also, as suggested by Lee, do this in a darkened room. You might need a small flashlight to check the Tempilaq.

Hope this helps,

Dick
 
I annealed some 6.5 Grendel, and some 308 win cases. I am unable to deform the necks when I attempt to crush the necks with my fingers. After heating the cases, they dropped out of the annealing machine into a bucket of water. They were then dried, and to make sure, I waited a couple of days. Then I resized all the cases to insure all necks would have consistent grip on the bullet. Two cases showed a little color running toward the case head, so they were crushed and discarded.

The Federal match brass shows just a little discoloration around the neck and by the shoulder. On a couple of the cases, this color change goes about 1/16th to 1/8th inch below the shoulder, but no were near the mid line of the case.

When working with the cases, I made sure that the case body didn't get overheated. I'm comfortable with the case body and case heads, it is only the case necks I am wondering about over annealing.

Are cases safe to shoot as long as they will hold the bullet?
 
What do you fellas think is the best automated machine on the market for the money right now? I know there are several good one, but do any of them stand out above the rest? Just curious! Lee
 
If you watch the video on the automated annealers with two opposing torches you will see, if you time it, that the cases are in the flame only about 4 seconds. I have a piece of aluminum bar about 1 inch diameter, turned with a 3/8 shaft on one end and a 1/2 inch hole in the other end. Goes in a cordless drill. The hole is only deep enough to take a ppc or br case about 1/2 way down. I arrange the two propane torches so that the flames converge. I drop a case in the hole and turn the drill slowly as I hold the case neck and shoulder in the flame for a count of one thousand one, one thousand two, etc. At four I drop the case into a box or a small tub of water. My ppc has a .012 thick neck as does my 30BR. Thinner necks would heat quicker. Also do it in low light and watch for color. Just when the neck starts to turn purple, I drop it. About every 10 cases you have to cool the alum holder. Depth of hole would depend on cartridge you are using.

Donald
 
I use a Ken Light annealer and am very satsified with it. I expect some of the others will also work well. With the KL, the case is only in the flames about 4 seconds. The intensity of the flame is something you can adjust and you could certainly over heat cases if you turn the flame hot enough using MAPP gas. I do the work in a dark room and the necks only just begin to glow as they go through the second flame. If you can see them turn red in a lighted room they are much too hot. You should always start with clean, polished cases. After correct annealing they will turn a golden brown in the shoulder neck area. You won't get the lapua "blue" most of the time, although it may show up just below the shoulder sometimes depending on how you polished them. Also, turning them in your fingers they will squeak.

There is no benefit to cooling the cases in water as the properties of brass are quite different from steel and also as soon as they leave the flame they cool quickly. To get the case head hot enough to damage it, you would have to heat the neck/shoulder extremely hot and they would not hold a bullet.


If the neck will hold a bullet it would certainly be safe. If they are a little soft, you can probably reharden them by running through an expander and then sized them in a full length bushing die. Do this a few times and they will tighten up. I speak from experience.

I'm no expert, but I occasionally stay in a Holiday Inn.

Rick
 
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Greyfox has it right,
One thing I like to see is the blue coloration extend down on the body shoulder about .250. This will keep the shoulder bump consistant when sizing.
Richard
 
Not loaded nor do I have motive...

There's no suggestion and I'm not leading to anything...etc..&..so forth... Just a question.

Are Y'all winning benchrest matches shooting annealed cases?
 
Wilbur,

I have personnally seen individuals hiding in the back of their reloading trailers annealing cases on saturday night. And yes, some are winning or top 10 placers at the supershoot, and other big shoots. Don't know why but most doing it don't really want others to know they are??? But one thing for sure, I would like all the newbie annealers at one end of the range with a few benches inbetween the non-annealers/experienced annealers. I don't think some realize what they are playing with. If this takes off....it might become the fourth of july at every match.

Anyway, I don't think there is a advantage over newly formed cases but if done correctly, it should make cases last longer. And it sounds more fundamentally practical than when I bring live chickens to the range for sacrifice. I can say that it's never helped my agg but I sure do eat well and people seem to leave you alone when you break out the chicken and a meat cleaver.

Hovis
 
Wilbur said:
There's no suggestion and I'm not leading to anything...etc..&..so forth... Just a question.

Are Y'all winning benchrest matches shooting annealed cases?
Click to expand...

HaHaHa!
Wilbur, I couldn't win a match if Tony B shot for me.

Donald
 
Wilbur said:
There's no suggestion and I'm not leading to anything...etc..&..so forth... Just a question.

Are Y'all winning benchrest matches shooting annealed cases?
Click to expand...

Wilbur,
I'm a lot like Donald. I'm to the point that I don't think I could win anything shooting any combination of anything. But, I will say that since I started annealing cases I have fewer train wrecks and have moved a little further up in the pack. I am now finding new ways to screw up other things.

Rick
 
noone said:
I annealed some 6.5 Grendel, and some 308 win cases. I am unable to deform the necks when I attempt to crush the necks with my fingers. After heating the cases, they dropped out of the annealing machine into a bucket of water. They were then dried, and to make sure, I waited a couple of days. Then I resized all the cases to insure all necks would have consistent grip on the bullet. Two cases showed a little color running toward the case head, so they were crushed and discarded.

The Federal match brass shows just a little discoloration around the neck and by the shoulder. On a couple of the cases, this color change goes about 1/16th to 1/8th inch below the shoulder, but no were near the mid line of the case.

When working with the cases, I made sure that the case body didn't get overheated. I'm comfortable with the case body and case heads, it is only the case necks I am wondering about over annealing.

Are cases safe to shoot as long as they will hold the bullet?
Click to expand...



If your confident the bases are not softened I'd say give it a go. I have by intention way overannealed case necks and saw no dangerous results. In factory rifles with large neck dimensions they'll usually harden up after a load or two. Standard/non bushing dies help speed this process.
I tried pretty hard in my expieriment but I could not ruin brass by overannealing. Yes, it was too soft to begin with but it came back around eventually.
Annealing will usually throw off your loads somewhat. Be prepared to see a difference.
I've developed some killer loads with freshly annealed brass that would open up upon second firing. Reanneal and accuracy returns. I personally hate that=) But it does show the effect.

Wilbur- Haven't as yet annealed my 6ppc brass. Never won a nationally recognized event yet either=) I have seen quite a few well used cases in quite a few different cartridges not expand the necks fully upon firing until reaching competition level pressures. You know they're hard at that point.
 
Rreply to Wilbur:

Yup :) I have been annealing cases for 8 or 9 years and many others anneal regularly. It is silly to throw away perfectly good cases simply because they need to their necks and shoulders softned up. Heck, the Factory wouldn't put that lovely color on the neck and shoulder ifn it weren't impotent, would they?

I am in great hopes the lad who is on his way with makeing the Conduction Annealer will bring one forward to us. It will revolutionize the annealing thing onest it is perfected.
 
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Just a few thoughts and comments:
I use a Ken Light machine and his info on 6mm br site is similar to what he provides with his machine. I use 450, 650 and 750 degree tempilaque on two or three discard cases in the type I am annealing(ie. 30br). I put 450 from head to just short of the shoulder. I put 650 from just below the shoulder(about a quarter inch) on to the neck. I put 750 on the neck only. Once set up, I run one of these cases to start and one at the end of my run. I look for the 450 to melt a quarter to half way down from the shoulder. This virtually guarantees that you have not annealed the head of the case. I look for the 650 to be melted from below the shoulder(at least 1/8 inch) and on the neck. The 750 should be melted on the neck of the case.

With Lapua brass that has been tumbled, I get an orange-red color at the shoulder and slightly onto the body (1/8 to 1/4 inch). I do not get a light blue as Ken says, and I think that this may be due to brass composition. You will not get the "out of the box" blue you see with Lake City, Lapua and other annealed brass as this occurs over time. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, you can twist a neck or shoulder of an annealed piece in your fingers(preferably after it cools) and get a "squeak" or resistance to turning ("that squeaky clean skin feeling after you shower"). This is caused by oxides formed by the annealing process. It also forms in your case neck and some suggest that you rotate a nylon brush inside the neck to remove. The neck after annealing also looks a distinctive "golden color" which is deeper than the bright brassy look on the body of the case.

As for annealing vs. not annealing, a friend who is a top benchrest shooter claims, and I verified to my satisfaction, that when fireforming cases and to some degree after a few reloads, you are more likely to get a uniform shoulder on your cases(fireforming) and less variance in headspace measurements from case to case in your set of brass.

Nothing earth-shattering, but something to mull over.
 
After annealing, I run all the cases through a sizer die to insure that they all have shoulders set at the same length. From what I'm hearing here, running them through the sizer die may help harden any necks that might have been over annealed.

From what people seem to be saying on this thread it appears that as long as I didn't anneal the case heads at all, and the cases will hold a bullet, I'm good to go. Is this correct?
 
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