Unstable fixtures

As to the rigidity of benches and frames, a strange setup to me is at the St Louis range. They have built the frames and reinforced them the best I have seen anywhere. The benches at St Louis have nice thick concrete tops and are sitting on 3 very large diameter concrete columns. Where the columns go into the benchtops are holes about 2" diameter than he columns. The void was filled with rubber foam. Doesn't have to be a rail, even when you set up a bench rifle, put the x-hair on a spot on the target, then lean against the bench, you can easily move the x-hair +/- about 2" at 100 yards.

As another comment. the Holton range copied the St Louis frame design which is of pipe welded and cross braced. On ranges that could leave frames in place this is a great design. Trouble is, and yes I have built ranges too, the locals show up, most without even a snit of target paper and start shooting at anything they can see in front of them.

My praises to the guys and gals who try to maintain a decent place to shoot in the environment that commonly exists at most gun clubs.
 
I used to shoot Palma and Fullbore at the Whittington Center in New Mexico. The 1000yd line is shared by the belly shooters and the long range benchrest shooters. The benches are portable and set in place for the benchrest matches. They have pipe lags. Recently the center dug out an 8 foot wide trench along the firing line and filled it with rock and gravel. The belly shooters are grumbling but getting by. I wonder how the 1000 yd benchrest shooters are going to fare with this set up?
 
Jerry,
I understand that some of the St. Louis benches have been fixed. Do you know anything about that? Does anyone else? This, and other examples speak to the need to build prototype benches to discover if there are any problems that need to be fixed before a full set is built.
Boyd

As far as the unnamed range goes, I would be interested in the details of its benches' construction. Do you think that the tops are loose on the base, or is the whole thing moving? Is the movement easily visible when leaning into the tail of the bench? If it is, how much movement is there? In my study of shooting benches, I have tried to find out about the construction details, advantages, and problems of as many different benches as I can. One thing that I have learned is that benches that move are more common than I had expected. The benches that I wrote of are not just suspect, they are obviously loose to anyone who uses them. There was no choice about adapting ones shooting style to the bench. It had to be done. Shortly after my first trip to that range, I decided to take my own portable bench for future sessions. Though not as good as a permanent bench, it is a lot better than the range's. It also requires some major adjustment to shooting style to produce the best groups.

Getting back to the original question, one either has to adapt to the limitations of the bench, or fix it. I found not touching the bench at all too difficult, given that it would move as I made adjustments to the rest, so I experimented until I arrived at what for me was the best solution. With a bench that was only suspect, I suppose that one might be able to disengage from the bench just before pulling the trigger, if one were shooting free recoil.
 
Boyd Allen said:
As far as the unnamed range goes, I would be interested in the details of its benches' construction. Do you think that the tops are loose on the base, or is the whole thing moving? Is the movement easily visible when leaning into the tail of the bench? If it is, how much movement is there? In my study of shooting benches, I have tried to find out about the construction details, advantages, and problems of as many different benches as I can.



I 'am afraid I can’t accommodate you on this request. It would require that I travel a considerable distance to two different locations,to make a close inspection. I could only guess at the amount of movement. It is visible in the scope.

I can’t say what part of the bench was causing the movement. I was too busy looking at wind flags,trying to keep my rifle in tune, loading ammo,etc.

Besides, when you’re shooting on somebody else’s turf, its kinda embarrassing to be closely snooping at their benches.

I will say that some of our bench designs,from what I can tell, is a concrete form top sitting on three anchored Cider Block Legs or metal legs.


I suggest that,during your research on this project, if you get some spare time, come to Texas and shoot at some of our ranges.

They always told me that First hand knowledge is always better than hearsay.



Glenn
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Glenn,
Thanks for the invite, but since I am in central CA. I doubt that I will make a bench problem inspection tour to TX. Besides, I have about all of the work that I want for the foreseeable future if the rebenching of the range that I am working toward is approved. Texans are a pretty smart breed, and not afraid of work, so I am sure that there are some capable locals that are fully capable of whatever needs to be done.
Boyd
 
Hi Guys,

I find all of this information interesting and valuable knowledge.
Especially for the quest that I am on to help improve my local club.

Here is a bench at a club that I am familiar with and have shot matches at.
These benches ARE solid!

IMG_0726.JPG

I am interested in seeing comments and discussion on target frames, and frame assemblies.
(No pit set ups though…)
As noted I am from and shoot in SE Wisconsin.
So the weather (freeze/thaw) plays havoc on the stability of the vertical posts.
We also have to deal with the shooting practices of the general club population on them too.

The club who's bench is shown, has a removable system.
In that they are installed for a match and then removed, and a "for public use" set is put in place.
But they too are experiencing problems with stability of the vertical 4x4 and 6x6 posts.

Would like to see comments and discussion and even some photos if possible.

Thanks,
Richard
 
Richard, that is

rafii@wi.rr.com said:
Hi Guys,

I find all of this information interesting and valuable knowledge.
Especially for the quest that I am on to help improve my local club.

Here is a bench at a club that I am familiar with and have shot matches at.
These benches ARE solid!

View attachment 15951

I am interested in seeing comments and discussion on target frames, and frame assemblies.
(No pit set ups though…)
As noted I am from and shoot in SE Wisconsin.
So the weather (freeze/thaw) plays havoc on the stability of the vertical posts.
We also have to deal with the shooting practices of the general club population on them too.

The club who's bench is shown, has a removable system.
In that they are installed for a match and then removed, and a "for public use" set is put in place.
But they too are experiencing problems with stability of the vertical 4x4 and 6x6 posts.

Would like to see comments and discussion and even some photos if possible.

Thanks,
Richard
Click to expand...

Van Dyne, WI. Even those benches can become loose. Part of the problem is the mortar in the joints from the legs to the top. Time and gravity is the culprit. Every once in a while, they have to work on those benches. So do we at Webster City. The key to the whole mess is the "work on them once in a while".
 
Experience has shown that mortar is not the correct material to use for attaching concrete tops to masonry bases. There are a number of adhesives that will do a good job. Like he said, periodic inspection and maintenance solves these problems, switching from, someone needs to, to do you have the time to lend me a hand.
 
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Richard….. The responses so far seem to be centered around Benches. I haven’t seen anything mentioned about target frames. Both of these fixtures are expendable, and prone to deteriorate due to the previously mentioned reason’s.

I am no expert on Constructing Benches and Target frames,but something tells me that there is no "build and forget" approach these projects

We have benches at one local range that are designed,using concrete tops that sit on heavy metal pipes that are anchored to a concrete slab foundation. I don’t see mortar or adhesive anywhere. I haven’t looked under the bottom of the concrete tops. Anything..... can be fixed or replaced or made better.



Glenn
 
When I go to the local range I keep thinking about a sheet of HDPE on top. We have pretty laid back rules here, I might try it. A fellow could replace it after a few years getting beat up.
 
I have built a few benches similar what Boyd's prototype bench. Partly out of simplicity, I like 4" x 4" Square tubing for everything on the base rather than using smaller tubing in places that it will work. One 20' piece will more than do for a bench and the larger welded joints are stronger than smaller ones.

I prefer concrete tops, with their added weight they work very well. I have bolted the concrete tops to the frame and I have inserted weld plates into the bottoms of the concrete tops and welded the metal base to the top. I prefer the weld plate method best.

Two layers of 3/4" exterior plywood glued together with a good paint job will work very well for a top. However, from time to time, you will have to replace a plywood top where a concrete top will outlast the builder. The material in a concrete top will cost no more than the plywood but the plywood might be easier to work with.

I believe that this type of bench is good enough to satisify even the pickest shooter. There is no perfect shape for everyone but the basic T shape with a good adjustable seat will work quite well. I sure like Boyd' stool.

Bill Wynne
 
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Boyd Allen said:
Jerry,
I understand that some of the St. Louis benches have been fixed. Do you know anything about that? Does anyone else? .............This, and other examples speak to the need to build prototype benches to discover if there are any problems that need to be fixed before a full set is built.
Boyd

.
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Some of the benchtios fixed you say? Not all?

We'll be finding out about the St Louis benches this summer when we shoot the NBRSA Nats there.

As to benchtop destruction, set a rule banning hammers from the benches and let the innovation of the shooters come up with better methods. I would guess benchrest shoots have been banned from clubs because of the damage we cause to benchtops. Most club members at the ranges we use are protective of their property and here we come with spikes and hammers.

I remember one club we shot a nationals at, Canastota maybe, that had wooden benchtops. Our railgun shooters came up with all kinds of "superfeet" designs and they apparently worked.

.
 
I think they replaced all the bench tops at St. Louis. In 2013 they were selling the old ones for $15 each. Saw folks loading them up, I would have bought some but no way to haul. Shot East West last year and from what I remember all the benches are great.
 
Metal

Why would this idea not work for stability and little maintenance. Using Super Feet with Magnet bottoms.

The Seat/stool can be made adjustable. Your Thought's.

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Glenn
 
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This is the way that I have built some benches. They are very simple, like me. This design provides cross sectional strength from every direction. It has 3 legs for stability. The concrete top provides weight, stiffness, and permanence. The frame is 4" x 4" square tubing. The frame is welded to the top. It can be moved if necessary but it is in no way portable. I have no attached stool because I find that sitting on the three legged bench causes additional movement.

Concho Bill
 

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Chism G said:
Why would this idea not work for stability and little maintenance. Using Super Feet with Magnet bottoms.

The Seat/stool can be made adjustable. Your Thought's.

DSC00092.jpg
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Glenn
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It's going to be hot as hell in July & "don't lick the flag pole" cold in January. JMHO.
Regards,
Ron
 
RJM said:
It's going to be hot as hell in July & "don't lick the flag pole" cold in January. JMHO.
Regards,
Ron
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This metal bench is just a design idea. It certainly would eliminate the use of hammers and the mandatory use of Super Feet.

This design could be modified to address the concern about “Heat and Cold”

Some kind of spray on material could be used for the top. These benches are covered. They are never exposed to direct sunlight and it doesn’t get that cold in this part of the Country. Comparatively speaking.

I don’t know about material Cost. That could be an obstacle for not considering this type bench.



Glenn
 
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