Unstable fixtures

C

Chism G

Active member
When I’m driving down the freeway,I have an inadvertent habit of looking at license tags on vehicles. This habit comes from a previous line of work as an investigator. I cant seem to shake this habit.

When I’m at the Rifle range, I set my 70lb rail gun up on a concrete bench. Sometimes I use superfeet,Sometimes I don’t. I prefer to lightly tap the Rail bottom legs to the bench.

I then focus the scope,on my rail gun, to get a clear picture of the target at 100~200yds. At this point,I have an inadvertant habit of watching the cross hair to see if it moves. I do this on a day when there is no mirage(Overcast).

When the wind blows,the crosshairs move at some ranges. I then slightly lean against the Concrete Bench,while looking through the scope. Again, the cross hairs move at some ranges.

I understand that there is not a target frame made that will survive the constant barrage of high velocity lead projectiles. Eventually ,something gives. Couple that with the effects from Mother nature and its not unusual to occasionally see target frame movement.

Concrete benches can be stabilized. Talk to shooters who have shot at a specific range a long time. They know which benches are suspect and they try to avoid them during practice. Come match day,it’s a luck of the draw. Bench rotation levels the,field to some degree. Target frames is another issue.

The unstable fixtures become serious variables in the pursuit of extreme accuracy. What are your thoughts on this issue or non-issue.


Glenn
 
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My thought is that the fellows that use them might consider fixing them....themselves. While they are at it, they could patch the damage caused by years of tapping in points. The concrete benches that I helped build were poured in place, in a single pour for base and top, with rebar extending from drilled holes in the slab through the base, into the top. Those same molds were used to pour benches at the Visalia range that replaced benches that had concrete block legs, and concrete tops that were attached with mortar only. The devil is in the details. The reason that I am interested in the sharing of bench construction details is that every range tends to reinvent the wheel, and build a set of benches without first building just one, and testing it.
 
If all the shooters had been just doing a light tap, I don't think the super feet requirements would have happened. Most shooters do not build or maintain benches. If they had, I am pretty sure that their perspectives would be different when it comes to intentional damage. As far as marking tops goes, I always have seen it as a form of abstract benchrest art, that does not harm the function of the bench. Back when my rest points were new, and sharp, just the weight of the rest was enough to keep it from moving. Of course this might have not been the case if the tops had been steel troweled with hardener applied.
 
I would consider my self a novice.
But would think that the best way to "perfection" and consistent repeatable accuracy is to eliminate as many unwanted variables as possible...
I appreciate these open and honest discussions!

I would like to see my local club host approved and registered matches.
But the truth is... It is NOT ready.
Due to these being discussed here. Poor benches... Poor target frames.
Being from SE Wisconsin, the freeze/thaw is tough on everything.

Caught the recent thread on benches.
Any past ones you can point my way?
How about target frames?

Let the comments begin!

Richard
 
Richard, I would recommend getting started with club level matches, get some experience under your belt and when you have all the help, and equipment right, then you will be ready for registered matches.
 
fixtures

My observations in post#1,are more related to another variable that exists in this sport. I think we can all agree that unstable benches and target frames can have a negative effect on accuracy.

I see concrete Shooting benches as expendable items that will eventually need repair. Lets face it ,They get banged up. Same as sidewalks, driveways and streets.

Go to a benchrest match and you’ll see some heavy duty hammers laying on bench tops next to rifle rests and Rail Guns. The hammers are there to prevent the front rests from moving. They do a good job of chipping holes in concrete bench Tops. I got a hammer and I;ve used it. Loaned it to other people. In most cases, The Super Feet idea came after the damage had been done.

For love of the sport, I will shoot off any Bench. There are few dedicated benchrest ranges in existence today. Most are multi purpose facilities whose membership could care less about bench top condition. I have come to the conclusion that bench top abuse is something that we have to get used to if we want to keep this Sport alive. Been on a Golf Course lately? Talk about abuse.

I belong to a local private shooting Range. Several of us Benchrest shooters got together and an re-attached a few of the concrete Bench tops that were too shaky to even practice on. I plan to attend one of the regular Board meetings and suggest a bench repair project for the 100/200yd range.

Richard…….there are experts that hang out here that can give you advice concerning your project. Hope you get your range up and running. We need another place to go shoot.



Glenn
 
I think that shooters' concern about bench damage may be directly related to the number of benches they have built. We have the means to shoot well from them without damaging them. It is really that simple.
 
Some more Philosophy; In the Real World Of Benchrest Competition,what's more important? Small aggs or repairable Benches.



Glenn
 
It has been proven to my satisfaction that benches do not have to be damaged to shoot small aggs. I have investigated this by speaking with shooters who own records that were shot using some version of what have been called super feet. IMO the idea that one has to sacrifice function to save bench tops is simply not correct.
 
Right On !!

Boyd Allen said:
I think that shooters' concern about bench damage may be directly related to the number of benches they have built. We have the means to shoot well from them without damaging them. It is really that simple.
Click to expand...



Boyd, I've never heard anything stated so well. :D Wow, that goes right to the heart of the matter and says everything that needs to be said. :)

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Boyd Allen said:
It has been proven to my satisfaction that benches do not have to be damaged to shoot small aggs. I have investigated this by speaking with shooters who own records that were shot using some version of what have been called super feet. IMO the idea that one has to sacrifice function to save bench tops is simply not correct.
Click to expand...



Boyd......Have you shot off a Bench in registered Competition that was a little shaky? If so what were your thoughts.

My original post was addressing an existing variable that doesn't get much discussion.



Glenn
 
All of my registered shooting has been done at Visalia, where the benches are cast in place, with the base and top in one piece of reinforced concrete. I do have some experience with my benchrest kit on some miserably shaky benches at an otherwise very nice club. That I why I got busy working on a project to replace them. Have you seen my thread about the prototype bench that I was a part of the effort to produce? I just came back from a short session shooting off of it, my second time, and I could not be happier with it. It is about 2" taller than the ones at Visalia, and because the fellow that did the fabrication also built an adjustable stool to go with it, the fit was perfect, and I could aim with my rest with no shooter induced bench wiggle at all. (Badda boom...cymbal crash.) Getting back to the question, when this set of replacement benches are done, it will be the second set that I have a lot to do with building. My answer to wiggly things is to either fix them, or replace them....period. The problems come in when you just have fellows who want to play with their toys, but not help build or maintain the playground.
 
Boyd Allen said:
All of my registered shooting has been done at Visalia, where the benches are cast in place, with the base and top in one piece of reinforced concrete. I do have some experience with my benchrest kit on some miserably shaky benches at an otherwise very nice club. That I why I got busy working on a project to replace them. Have you seen my thread about the prototype bench that I was a part of the effort to produce? I just came back from a short session shooting off of it, my second time, and I could not be happier with it. It is about 2" taller than the ones at Visalia, and because the fellow that did the fabrication also built an adjustable stool to go with it, the fit was perfect, and I could aim with my rest with no shooter induced bench wiggle at all. (Badda boom...cymbal crash.) Getting back to the question, when this set of replacement benches are done, it will be the second set that I have a lot to do with building. My answer to wiggly things is to either fix them, or replace them....period. The problems come in when you just have fellows who want to play with their toys, but not help build or maintain the playground.
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Saw the picture of the prototype. Looks sturdy enough to me. Wish I knew how to build stuff. I know what I could do with about five of them benches like the one in the picture.

Every Benchrest shooter could benefit from owning his own private shooting range. You get to fix what's broke,when it breaks. I think I will go buy a lotto ticket.


Glenn
 
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Although I will always favor reinforced masonry and/or concrete as a bench material. After shooting this prototype, I am firmly of the opinion that they are not a a requirement for a sturdy bench. One advantage of steel is that it can be fabricated off site and brought to the range finished, or have tops fitted on site, depending on the requirements of the material.

I am 66 and the poster boy for the consequences of lack of physical activity. When we built the forms and benches at the Fresno range, forms that were also used for Visalia, I was in good enough shape to put in a hard days work, and I knew a lot of fellows who were persuaded to lend a hand to the project. We mixed the concrete on site, and wheel barrowed it to the forms. The fewest that I had for a Saturday morning work party was a dozen, plus we had a crew of retired fellows that would come in later to strip, clean, rewax, and assemble the forms. With out that group the project could not have been done, because the rest of us worked during the week. We poured sets of six benches, seven Saturdays in a row. Between pours, I laid out the holes in the slab for the next six benches, rotohammered the holes, fabricated the rebar, and picked up the sack cement. Sand and aggregate had been delivered to the job site and were in piles that we worked from when mixing batches on site. They were very labor intensive benches, and without a lot of help, they would never have been done. Also, two other fellows and I had a considerable amount of time in building forms. My point in all of this is that doing this little project had two effects. It made me take more than usual notice of bench designs and construction details, and it has given me a real attitude about people who pass off bench damage as no big deal, or some sort of requirement for accuracy. A lot of good people worked on that project. Looking back, I am amazed that we pulled it off. The firing line slab and roof over it are 256' x 30'. the front half of the roof and the slab extend 8' beyond the fronts of the benches. There are columns at the rear and center of the roof, with the front half cantilevered.
 
Down in this part of the Country,I have not met A Benchrest Shooter that would not graciously volunteer to do what they can to assist with construction projects.

The problem is getting permission from the Board(Private Ranges). Most of the Private Ranges here,Shot Gunners rule. If the construction project isn’t about the the Shot Gun range,you’re just about SOL.

Its just a hand full of real benchrest shooters that frequent the local ranges that I attend for practice. It’s an uphill battle, trying to get the, powers to be, to commit resources that would benefit a minority group.

I will admit, I couldn’t build a Dog House without pissing off the Dog.:D We know where the shaky benches are, So,when we occasionally get to the range to practice,we pick the ones that are stable. For obvious reason's.


Glenn
 
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In the case of the Fresno range, while the initial push came from a benchrest shooter for the construction of a new members only range (We already had two 20 bench hundred yard ranges that were used by both members and shooters who paid a day use fee.) All of the members who ended up actually doing the project, applying for the NRA loan, doing the engineering, putting it out to bid, and then building the benches, were recreational shooters who wanted a better range.

On this latest project, the club president is a good man and he has the support of his board. I was able to convince enough of its members to approve an expenditure for materials for this prototype, and after they saw its quality, the prospects for replacing all of the benches on that range seems quite good. Of course this is partly related to their having some extremely wiggly wood benches in the first place.

As far as dealing with a range with some problem benches go, if I were in that position, and they could be made stable, I think that I would simply ask if anyone cared if the more critical shooters fixed them at no cost to the club, and set about organizing some shooters who were willing to put in a few bucks over time, and then fix them one or two at a time.

When I was a board member of the Fresno range, and was given the task of running the range construction project, and later as President, I understood that there would be some unreimbursed expenses that I would have to absorb.

One of the things that I have learned over time is that selling members on a project is one of the most important parts of getting it done. With enough participants, and approval to do the work, assuming existing benches can be fixed, I see no real reason to be stopped by lack of funding by the club. At the Fresno range, improvements to the CCPL, and Cowboy shooters' areas have come largely from separate treasuries of what we call subordinate clubs, that were created to run their matches, from which the main club gets a small portion of the fees. They operate under the authority of the main club, and have to meet its requirements but they do a good job of running their own shows and as a result have built up successful operations of their own that free up the board of the main club from having to plan and run matches. This same principal has been applied to high power and pistol silhouette as well. Of course when there have been major projects to be done, that were beyond the capability of the subordinate clubs, the main club has stepped up with funding, and has always been as generous as it could afford to be in subsidizing the various forms of competition that share the range property, some 222 acres that straddles a foothill ridge. All of this has been made possible by the revenue from daily use fees, as well as dues from a large membership. It is these two groups that are the financial golden goose that create the income that makes everything possible. The club has a paid staff, and is open year round, six days a week.
 
Congrats on the success of the projects in your part of the Country.

At one of the Private ranges that I am affiliated with,The majority of the membership are Shot gunners. As is the case with most of the local Private Ranges .

There is a lot of organizational Politics involved. If you understand what I mean.
I spent 31 years in a Job ,where interagency politics had a huge impact on day to day operations. I have no desire to relive those experiences..

I am retired(72yrs old) I have chosen This hobby(Benchrest Competition) as a way to relax, have some fun,and meet people. So far I have not been disappointed.

I have no desire to burden myself with trying to convince somebody to do something they may not be motivated to do. I need to practice shooting Benchrest more than I do.

This is the off season (BR) in this area. I started this thread to get a little input on shooting from a shaky bench in registered Competition. Just for the fun of it. It helps improve my typing skills.

I try to make as many registered shoots,in the area,that I can. I intend to make it back to the Super Shoot this year. This time as a competitor. Hope to see you there.


Glenn
 
Based on my shaky bench experience, with the exact same equipment I have used in registered matches, I would say that knob twiddling is out, and that bag squeezing while shouldering the rifle is the best approach. In essence you are trying to assume a stress free position where you are stabilizing the bench, and doing the final refining of your point of aim by slight pressure of your thumb and first two fingers. One of the reasons that I decided on my latest bench project was that I feel that I cannot get the average level of results from a shaky bench that I can from a rigid one. I have tried a lot of different approaches with the shaky ones, and came to the conclusion that they limit your options as far as shooting style, and your overall accuracy. Rigid benches allow a variety of successful shooting styles. I would be interested in the specifics of someone's problem benches, because figuring out how to fix these sorts of problems is something that I enjoy. Pictures would be a big help.
 
Benches

So let the dialogue continue. Some clarification is due here. Boyd is here to promote his new Bench design idea. Which,in my opinion is a just and over due cause. I,m here to generate some discussions about shaky benches. I’m not having much luck. I may need to make an appointment with a mind specialist. Anyway….

One of he things that attracted me to this Sport was all the gadgets I saw when I attended my first Benchrest Match. I felt I was rubbing shoulders with people who possessed unlimited imagination. The stuff that good Presidents are made of. I firmly believe that if you turn a range over to a bunch of Real Benchrest shooters,they will figure out a way to fix the most problematic Bench or Target Frame.

I disagree with Boyd’s idea about employing a special shooting shooting style to successfully shoot off a wobbly bench. I’ll tell you my hands on experience regarding this very real variable.

I wont name the Range. I started the day off at a registered match, with a respectable agg at the end of the the first yardage. Rotated to another bench and my Rifle tune suddenly went into the Toilet. Or so I thought.

After that first match, a friend shooting next to me, who was a regular at that range, whispered in my ear. Its good to have a few friends. He said he had looked at my target and that the bench was a little shaky.. His advice was, try not to touch it while You shoot. You can imagine what that advice did to my Shooting focus. I proceeded to shoot myself out of contention for that yardage, because I could not develop a shooting style that would compensate for a shaky bench. I doubt there is one. All shaky benches don’t shake the same. Rotated to another bench and my good tune came back.

Now folks, put yourself in my shoes. Try changing your instinctive shooting style in the middle of a registered match. Old habits are hard to break.

I am just an average shooter. Oh. I have shined on occasion. that’s what keeps me coming back. I will never be in anybody’s Hall Of Fame. However ,I bet I have as much or more fun than anybody that plays this game.

I conclude that the best solution to a shaky bench is to fix the Bench. That could be as simple as two floor jacks and liquid nails or an elaborate design like Boyd’s. The Sport needs evolutionary ideas like Boyd’s.

This dialogue about this subject could provide the framework for a good magazine article. I haven’t seen much talk about unstable range fixtures and their impact on the pursuit of extreme accuracy. Maybe there is none.

I’m getting better acquainted with my computer every time I Post here.

Glenn
 
Don't understand why you guys shooting off Concrete tops, Hate them! (Shot of a few and done well). But why not put marine plywood on top? Thats what we did years ago. By putting the screws in so that when you flip the plywood the screw holes line up. And even with people using hammers they last a few years before we flip them. I think that if when you start out new and pour the Top you could even put threads in the concrete so you could use machine screws if done right. Hate benches that move, Also have to watch that the pad that they are on is not part of the problem. If someone walks on it while you are shooting check to see if thats part of the problem. SEEN IT!

Joe Salt
 
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