Tuners!!!!
- Thread starter tonykharper
- Start date
I have’nt found anything yet, this spring we’ll see, so for now,we get a comedy in two ( or three) acts.
Oh, I forgot, tune for lot changes???? More insight from a non- participant.
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I'd be interested in your findings once you get a chance. Having said that didn't you just send a gun or 2 to the Lapua test center? I'm assuming you found a lot or 2 to buy meaning it shot pretty well or even better than a Eley lot you have ? If you sent a heavy gun do you know if they remove the tuner in testing? If not, I'm guessing you'll be fine where its at. Never heard of them making any tuner adjustments. They may, I don't know.
Without detailing what that image represents it doesn't tell me much of anything.
Do you care to elaborate at all on how that sequence is shot?
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Sure. Those are 3 shot groups moving the tuner only 1 mark at a time. Fwiw, each mark is .001" of tuner travel.
I'll explain more later.
Yes, there's always "later" isn't there?
When you finished a three shot group and turned the tuner did you shoot the first shot of the next group or did you shoot one off-paper?
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I hope we all have "later". This isn't a 5 minute explanation. I'll try to be as detailed as I can be but I can't stop working for most of a day to type.
No, I don't dump a shot off target between adjustments. For now, the point of the pic is to show the clear sine wave that represents the actual barrel displacement. Frequency is the distance between two points, ie, top of two consecutive waves. Top and bottom are known as anti-nodes.
More later.
Take a good look at that image folks, the one with the groups......the one that says "Panda" as in CFBR.
That's because Mikey is on record that RF and CF barrels act EXACTLY the same.
When that there was first opined, I received multiple PM's across a couple forums, from some very, very accomplished RFBR guys, including names everyone would know and respect, calling bulls..t.
Now to his credit, Mike employs some good methodology regarding tuning discipline that is far better than some random crap some guys utilize, however having a rather pedantic style with zero creds in the rimfire world........well you decide.
That's because Mikey is on record that RF and CF barrels act EXACTLY the same.
When that there was first opined, I received multiple PM's across a couple forums, from some very, very accomplished RFBR guys, including names everyone would know and respect, calling bulls..t.
Now to his credit, Mike employs some good methodology regarding tuning discipline that is far better than some random crap some guys utilize, however having a rather pedantic style with zero creds in the rimfire world........well you decide.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Why must you continue to discredit what you haven't even heard yet, Timmy? I too have received messages stating that my system works. So, there are those that have tried it...and there is you. And no, I've never said that rf and cf are EXACTLY alike, but we'll get to that too. What I have said is that the bbl doesn't know the difference. It will vibrate at it's own natural frequency, regardless of rf or cf. RF barrels are typically far less stiff than cf bbls and do vibrate at a lower frequency. Yes, that pic is a cf target and you'll see the similarities soon.
And as for your previous post stating that I'm not qualified because I don't participate in rfbr... correctly stated, that would be that, I "no longer participate in rfbr", Not that I haven't. Good people and good game but there's not enough time nor money to do both. I did ok while I shot ARA and PSL. As most new to rfbr shooters, my best cards were almost always early, when conditions were best. It was 2014 IIRC, so you can look it up and continue to berate me for not being a national champion rfbr shooter if you want. It matters not to me, because you've always got a thorn up your arse in regard to this subject and me in general. I quit caring for your opinion on most things long ago. It's ok if you feel the same way.
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I've never noticed that drastic with rf. I'm going to have to pay more attention I guess. Its my understanding that its best to be tuned at the top of the wave opposed to the bottom.
Mike, any idea why we sometimes induce horizontal into the group when moving a tuner? I figured it was due to the bore of the tuner not being concentric with the bore. I saw it somewhat drastically once on a barrel that the tuner didn't fit real well on i.e., too loose. As I recall it had about .010 runout. My "cure" for it was to bore the tuner out when it was on the barrel in the lathe. Seemed to work .
Anyhow, Interested in your thoughts on it.
Keith
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I am not Mike, but just to confirm my observations, my Aussie tuner http://www.loweyproducts.com/products.html was specifically bored to suit my barrel dimensions and with a 'locator' stop fitting so results are repeatable.
I visited my local range today. Vertical error was zero, just like when I tuned it 3 days ago for 'one holers'. Wind was about 10 km/h left - right.
Horizontal drift was present, my wind flags confirmed that a tuner cannot compensate for wind so made a mental note 'Watch the bloody flags' as I had a horizontal spread of about 0.3 in, my fault.
* doggie *
You also cannot ideally tune in a 10km/h wind.
One of the single biggest mistakes shooters make is trying to tune in condition as opposed to waiting for condition to get as good as possible at your range.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Hi Keith! RF doesn't put as much amplitude or muzzle deflection into the barrel to be as distinct at 50 yards. It'll show up more further but obviously, the groups open drastically and it's harder to trust each shot. As for amplitude, think, smaller hammer as opposed to cf. This is particularly so on shorter, stiffer barrels and a lighter tuner.
As to horizontal in the groups, in can be wind but tuners also affect horizontal when the gun is out of tune. The further out of tune, the more horizontal will show up. Gravity does make it more vertically biased but the barrel moves sideways, too. Imagine an egg on its end.
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You can say that again!
Unfortunately my local range has a prevailing l-r wind and it is a rare day when it drops to zero so I am forced to wait for 'condition' as indicated by my wind flags.
All is not lost though as even in a given wind condition, group size and location vary repeatably with each slight twist if the tuner body.
Whomever said that tuners were invented by the ammo manufactures was was correct, I went through two boxes of Eley Tenex yesterday and found 2 interesting nodes worth further exploration. (Range only open on Wednesdays 10 -12)
Range officer remarked that I had attended the range twice a week since the end of January so I told him that after two years of lockdown (Here in Victoria, Australia) I needed a bit of practice and in the words of the Arnold Palmer "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get"
At the end of the day, competitions may happen on a calm day or a windy day, so practicing in all conditions means that the wind can be your friend - If you are prepared and know how to handle it.
As for my tuner, it has made but a small but measurable improvement to my Anschutz 1411 group sizes as on a good day it already shot 1/4 moa groups without the tuner. By using the Lowey tuner I have been able to reduce vertical flyers, that's what I was hoping for.
What was more interesting was the psychological effect that it had on my fellow competitors, ranging from "gotta get one of them" to "bloody things should be banned".
Fascinating topic so please keep up the useful input people.
Regards * doggie *