Tuner question (not for real......) :) maybe?

S

scott mims

Guest
Ok...... Is it strictly the "turning" of the tuner that does what "it does" to accuracy or does the weight of the tuner play a part in it?
Also has anyone tried putting washers (rubber or other material) up and down a barrel to see if it would have the same outcome as a tuner on the end of the barrel? I'm sure you would have to keep a eye on the rubber washer so when the barrel heats up they wouldn't melt ?

But seriously has anyone done that test before.... One thick washer and go up and down on the barrel to find the tune or several different washers up and down the barrel....... Sorry for the strange question.........it is February after all ?
 
Scott, in a nutshell, weight at the muzzle changes both the frequency and amplitude of vibration, vs. no weight(tuner). Moving that weight makes changing the frequency possible. The weight creates more amplitude, effectively slowing the muzzle and making it's movement more vertically biased. The benefits here are longer and more pronounced dwell times at optimal bullet exit points, in turn, yielding a wider tune window. Some use a tuner for this benefit alone, but still tune with powder charge/seating depth..etc.

Moving the tuner OTOH, is essentially doing the same thing as tuning with traditional methods. That being, timing bullet exit with the muzzle being at a node, producing optimum tune or accuracy for a given setup. A huge benefit here is the ability to tune at the bench rather than changing loads.

I go to matches pre-loaded and only adjust the tuner, if/when needed, to maintain tune..the same way as if I were changing loads to keep the gun/ammo in tune. I've been doing it this way since I first started using tuners several years ago, now.

Tuners are much, much easier to use than to understand. They take very little movement to maintain tune. The most common misconception people make with tuners is assuming that they need big adjustments. If that were true, they would likely over complicate matters. In fact, that's far from the case, though. They are extremely easy to use..IMO, much, much easier than learning to tune by traditional methods. Different tuner styles and variables such as barrel contour play a role in this, but typically, movement as little as a single mark on the tuner is enough to maintain tune throughout the day, and often, due to the wider tune window that the mass at the end of the barrel gives...no adjustments are needed at all. My tuners have 32 hash marks and are threaded .900x32tpi, so, we're literally talking about being able to see on target, .001" of tuner travel. It's very typical to go from completely in tune, to completely out of tune in about .004", or 4 marks with my tuner. I'll include a link to my tuner page. There's some good reading there should you wish to view it.
Here's the link. The pics are old. The cf tuner(top) is designed to be threaded onto the barrel. The bottom pic is a rf tuner, made to be clamped on.
http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/home-3/pdt-tuners/


As for rubber washers etc., I can only say that while some have claimed good results, I have not done enough testing to be conclusive. I have wrapped a barrel with .080" thick heat shrink tubing...It didn't work for me.
 
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Years ago, I did some tuner testing. None of if contradicts what Mike wrote, but I will add one thing. The rubber damps vibration. This is demonstrable by tapping on a free floated barrel with a small piece of metal. Not all things rubber or plastic are created equal in this regard. IMO heat shrink tubing was created for other purposes than damping vibration. I have used Sims Laboratory's Deresonator for this purpose, and it is quite effective in damping vibration. Of course its placement on the barrel is another matter, but the damping is quite evident by the sound with and without. Essentially there are two issues here, barrel vibration frequency and amplitude, which are influenced by tuner position and weight, and the damping of spurious vibration that may originate from the action of the striker assembly and bolt in the action. (Yes this is conjecture.) As to the proper way to use a tuner, one of the most successful tuner users in CF short range benchrest, Gene Buckys, tells me that he sets his tuner for the broadest node that he can find, after first tuning his rifle without it, and then from that point on, he tunes in the normal manner, as if he were not using a tuner. He told me that he specifically does not want to move a tuner during a match. My point in mentioning this is not to say that one approach is more correct, but rather to point out that successful shooters vary in their opinions as to how to best use their tuners. From what I hear, preloading is mostly done by score shooters, and sees little use in group. I think that it may be that the .30 BR lends itself to this more than the 6PPC. Getting back to Gene Buckys for a moment, he says that the primary advantage of tuners is that they broaden nodes.
 
Thanks Boyd. I agree. I think the biggest hurdle standing between more widespread use of tuners is weight in lv class. Without adding mass to the overall barrel, tuners are much less effective. IOW, it needs to be heavy enough to work...OR, as we've discussed, barrels need to be more tuner friendly. I still plan to hinge a barrel pretty soon. I'll keep you posted on what I find, but time has been very short of late and the weather has been uncooperative, to say the least.

There are exceptions to virtually everything in life, and in br, but I can't think of anyone who has given tuners serious consideration that has regretted using them. Weight keeps a lot of people from trying them.

Whether one uses a tuner like Gene, strictly for the wider nodes, or like most of the rest of us, to adjust, they have proven to me to be a valuable tool where weight allows. Frankly, while I'm not going to knock what works for one of the best shooters on the planet, I don't understand the notion of not using the adjustability that tuners give. With index marks, it's simple enough to put the tuner right back where it was or to adjust for tune. Again, IME, adjustments are very small but clear on the target. Worrying about getting lost is not an issue.

Of course Gene is also one of the best ever at keeping up with tune by the traditional powder charge/seating depth method. That would surely be a factor in why he uses a tuner as simply a weight.
 
FBecigneul said:
Changing Genes and going to Gene Beggs.
We have been using the Gene Beggs tuners ever since I quit bashing them and actually tried them. We tune as dictated to by the Kestrel 4000 Weather Tracker and the Density Altitude that it calculates. My range notes are in a safe right now and I don't feel like standing up, walking across the room, and unlocking the safe but I'd say we've used the Beggs Tuners for about 8 years. What was appealing to us is that they weigh 4 ounces and in LV class you don't have a lot of weight to give away with some stock, action, barrels. For one inch of the barrel you have to take the O.D. down to a diameter and thread it for the tuner so the tuner installation doesn't actually add 4 ounces to the rifle. We have scribed the tuners with marks representing one hour around the tuner. A change of 250 feet of density altitude dictates a turn of one hour (1/12th rotation) on the tuner in our case(s). I use the plural because we have a tuner on about 8 or 10 barrels and they all react differently. Before I went the route of the tuner, Calfee was an idiot and Gene Beggs didn't know what he was talking about. But then we started actually using the tuner and had to admit that Calfee and Beggs were right.
So Scott, what are you doing these days? You can e-mail me at my e-mail by clicking my name. Did I hear you are no longer at UPS?
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That sounds about right Francis. With the difference in weight between the Beggs tuner and mine, both being 32 tpi, mine extending beyond the muzzle..yada, yada..

I recently was able to closely calculate the weight needed for one of my tuners to respond with similar tuner movements as I typically see on hv contour barrels, but on a 1.450 barrel blocked rifle with 19" of barrel beyond the block. When all was said and done, total tuner weight was 15.9ozs and the barrel responded to tuner movement very much the same as a 7.4 ounce tuner on my hv rig. Point being, this is all quite predictable. I used Dan Lilja's barrel stiffness calculator to figure how much the tuner should weigh to get it to act like mine. It seemed to work out very close to what I'd hoped for. That rifle was a 57lb 30BR in an aluminum Baer stock. It's all noise at that weight. It'll be shot in UBR unlimited class.
 
this post went better than i thought it would. i was waiting to be laughed at. so i guess all of that has been done? thanks for all the replies. Frances i sent you a private message. hope yall are doing good.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Id love to have a baer aluminum hg stock
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Me too Dusty. He's suppose to send me some better pics soon. This is all I have of it finished. It makes a NF BR look small, so it's a big un'.
ron%20jackson%20hg_zpsq8b5w1ix.jpg
 
Mr Jackson is going to be tough to beat. The competition may be for 2nd place. OTOH- maybe I'll just have to go to more matches that he doesn't shoot ;)

Rick
 
On barrels found in 100-200 yard Benchrest, the weight of the tuner is of no consequence. Mine go about 4 ounces.

The best tuners, (IMHO), are the ones with some type of dampener, or as some say, a snubber. I like to believe that this is my creation, if you look back in the archives of Benchrest.com, you might agree. But regardless who came up with it, it works.

Also, how much you turn the tuner depends on the Threads Per Inch of the adjustment. Mine are 36 TPI. 1/4 turn is a pretty fine adjustment.

Here is the snubber tuner on my LV.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15918&stc=1&d=1425167415
 

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Greyfox said:
Mr Jackson is going to be tough to beat. The competition may be for 2nd place. OTOH- maybe I'll just have to go to more matches that he doesn't shoot ;)

Rick
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From what I saw from this rifle, and knowing how well Ron can shoot...you might be right. I think the rifle is possibly the ideal unlimited rifle for benchrest for score.
 
Ive got one exactly like it- same shape and all but its made of fiberglass and lead shot. Its 60+ lbs bare stock
 
i know this has been asked and answered before but what i have always wanted to know is......... with our 6ppc most loads are between 52.5 and 55 clicks. do people with tuners go with the average (53.75) or around there...... load all their loads with that and just adjust the tuner until they find the tune without adding powder or loading less powder? or do people still change loads along with the tuner? is the tuner strictly for small adjustments? i have a hard time with just trying to go up or down on powder i couldnt imagine adding another variable.

Also in my first post when I was saying rubber washer I meant a rubber O ring
 
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Over here, I shoot in a belly sport (we call it Match Rifle) over 1000, 1100 & 1200 yards using the standard .308 Winchester case - with long throats for the 190-215 grain projectiles we use. See us here: http://www.matchrifle.org/

To get those buggers to 1200 yards comfortably, you need to squeak the most velocity possible out of them, then tweak them for accuracy. The way a lot of us do it is load test molied bullets jumping around .025" over a chronograph until we get 15 shot spreads at least under 15 fps, then tweak them with a behind the muzzle tuner weighing around 2 ounces. We've found that within bounds the lighter the mass of the tuner we use, the more forgiving is the tune that we achieve, albeit it might be a tad less accurate than if we'd tuned for a single distance with bigger tuners. Set it up right for one distance & it will work OK for the rest.

Oh, yes, we're loading to the milligram with out powder charges, not the click.
 
Being undisputedly the FIRST 100/200centerfire shooter to shoot ALL the major events, in a single year, Super Shoot, both nationals, the Shamrock, Hog Roast, and 4 local shoots using a tuner, even before they were "approved" by the IBS I'll make a comment or two. The year was 2005.

You can take a light weight tuner, say in the under 5 ounce range, you can tune for the moment. I.E. within a given setup, conditions, powder ,bullet, etc., you can use a light weight tuner and change how the gun is shooting....for the moment. You will notice with current tuner users they keep adjusting during the day. Using this method and tuner type, the tuner becomes another choice of something to use during the shoot.

If your intention is to use a tuner to get maximum accuracy OUT OF A BARREL, the tuner must weigh over the 5 ounce range in its construction. I never went far enough to determine the break-over point but the tuners Scott "Fudd" Hamilton, of Fudd Tuner fame, made for me in January 2005, the tuner needs to be about 10 ounces or more. In having a tuner that heavy and shooting in our LV class the weight of the barrel must be reduced. If you will search for some old posts of mine dating from after 2005 you will find pictures I posted of about 6-8 different configurations from just straight turning, like the rimfire guys do, to "exotic" shapes like the Mauser steps that Mauser used in his early models.

Bottom line, to get the maximum capable accuracy out of a given barrel the tuner needs to be heavy. To simply to add another tuning tool the tuner can be light.

Or you can do like George Kelbly Sr and Paul Gottshal did many years ago. They took a bronze bearing sleeve that weighed about 5 pounds and simply clamped it to the barrel with setscrews. George's comment was "all it did was lower the impact point". George still has that "tuner" somewhere at their shop.

.
 
JerrySharrett said:
Being undisputedly the FIRST 100/200centerfire shooter to shoot ALL the major events, in a single year, Super Shoot, both nationals, the Shamrock, Hog Roast, and 4 local shoots using a tuner, even before they were "approved" by the IBS I'll make a comment or two. The year was 2005.

You can take a light weight tuner, say in the under 5 ounce range, you can tune for the moment. I.E. within a given setup, conditions, powder ,bullet, etc., you can use a light weight tuner and change how the gun is shooting....for the moment. You will notice with current tuner users they keep adjusting during the day. Using this method and tuner type, the tuner becomes another choice of something to use during the shoot.

If your intention is to use a tuner to get maximum accuracy OUT OF A BARREL, the tuner must weigh over the 5 ounce range in its construction. I never went far enough to determine the break-over point but the tuners Scott "Fudd" Hamilton, of Fudd Tuner fame, made for me in January 2005, the tuner needs to be about 10 ounces or more. In having a tuner that heavy and shooting in our LV class the weight of the barrel must be reduced. If you will search for some old posts of mine dating from after 2005 you will find pictures I posted of about 6-8 different configurations from just straight turning, like the rimfire guys do, to "exotic" shapes like the Mauser steps that Mauser used in his early models.

Bottom line, to get the maximum capable accuracy out of a given barrel the tuner needs to be heavy. To simply to add another tuning tool the tuner can be light.

Or you can do like George Kelbly Sr and Paul Gottshal did many years ago. They took a bronze bearing sleeve that weighed about 5 pounds and simply clamped it to the barrel with setscrews. George's comment was "all it did was lower the impact point". George still has that "tuner" somewhere at their shop.

.
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Thanks Jerry, that pretty well mirrors what I've found.
The thing about light tuners is that they can't increase the amplitude as much as a heavier tuner. Amplitude is what effectively slows the muzzle and creates longer dwell time at nodes. It also makes tuning more apparent on target. In practice, and as Jerry said, lighter tuners(to a point) can give adjustability but don't broaden the node as much as heavier designs.

If lightening a barrel means shortening existing contours, the barrel gains stiffness rapidly, therefore needing more tuner weight to give the same effect....sort of a catch 22. This is why Boyd and I have been discussing hinging the barrel. The idea is to reduce the barrel od for a section a few inches after the receiver face, to the point where muzzle deflection is the same or more than it would be prior to cutting it down. The theory is that it would tune much the same as it did before cutting and without needing more tuner weight to do it.

As for tuners adding another variable, I see it just the opposite. To me, it's much easier to learn how to use a tuner than to learn to keep a gun in tune with powder charge/seating depth. If one is determined to tune the traditional way and leave the tuner set, then he still sees the broader tune benefit with no other variables.
 
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