To be considered a compatative rifle

alinwa said:
Now here's a place where I have to play Devil's Advocate with Tony.....

For new guys, and moreso for guys like the OP, Markhor, the real question is "everything!"

"is the gun shooting?"
"am I shooting?"
"CAN I shoot?"
"are my bags too hard?"
"are my bags too soft"
"is my front too hard?"
"is my rear too hard?"
"should I have heavy sand?"
"should I go up?"
"should I go down?"

"SHOULD I? COULD I? WOULD I???"

It's WICKED getting off the ground so that you can even know what Tony's talking about..... YES, I agree with what Tony's saying there but it doesn't mean a thing until you KNOW #1, what's acceptable and #2 that you are capable. Read again what Boyd wrote.


(My apologies Markhor if this doesn't represent you or your question.... but this doesn't change my point.)

al
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Al, you HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. That is EXACTLY the dilema I am in shooting up in the Great White North. Where is the nearest shooter that has actually done something in the game that could help me out????????? or be willing to teach a youngster?????? Oh about 15-17 hours away.

I have to do it the HARD way and try and figure this crap out myself.

Later fellas
 
Boyd and Al, you are both right on the money. Having an experienced shooter as a mentor in this game is a must, doing things on trial and error is just too frustrating and expensive. To tell you the truth, I don't even know what my current rifles are actually capable of shooting. I know that in an experienced shooters hand & with the right setup, they will shoot a lot better then what I am currently getting out of them.
Al, you are totally right, I have no idea if my front bag or rear bag are properly filled or if my setup is correct. I have invested in the best equipment that I can afford but their is no substitute for experience. This is when a mentor can save you money and more importantly frustration. Now all I need is to find one in Northern VA.

Thanks,
Ed
 
Gary Ocock shot a .15xx agg at 200 yards in the Sporter division at the NBRSA Nationals at St. Louis in 2009. So to be competitive at the national level, one MUST have a rifle capable of shooting small "1's", and capable of shooting zeroes would be even better. The conditions were good at St. Louis that year and Tom Libby shot an 0.086" group at 200 yards. Does a "zero" capable rifle mean that one can always shoot in the "1's"? No, not at all....it all depends on the conditions. But if you have a rifle that is only capable of .25 MOA in good conditions, then you are out of luck in the big matches. Good shooting....James
 
James,
I totally agree, but the problem is that the conditions that produced the aggregates and groups that you mentioned are rare, particularly in some parts of the country. I am lucky. At the Visalia range, in the early morning, and just before sunset, calm conditions occur on a fairly regular basis, but others may not be so lucky. I know that you know all of this, but I think that is bears repeating in a thread like this.

Ed,
In the absence of a mentor, the next best thing is to become an experimenter. This is something that I enjoy, and by doing so, I have stumbled on some things that work....for me. Unfortunately one of them has not been fluency in the language of flags;-) Perhaps that is because it is something that cannot be discovered, or purchased, but has to be learned from a lot of practice, something that I need to do more of.
 
JD Mock said:
Gary Ocock shot a .15xx agg at 200 yards in the Sporter division at the NBRSA Nationals at St. Louis in 2009. So to be competitive at the national level, one MUST have a rifle capable of shooting small "1's", and capable of shooting zeroes would be even better. The conditions were good at St. Louis that year and Tom Libby shot an 0.086" group at 200 yards. Does a "zero" capable rifle mean that one can always shoot in the "1's"? No, not at all....it all depends on the conditions. But if you have a rifle that is only capable of .25 MOA in good conditions, then you are out of luck in the big matches. Good shooting....James
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Yeahhh, that's what I was trying to say.

thanks

And YES Calvin, that's liddle round groups....... ain't no ears on a zero! Nor even on a one.

al

al
 
what Wilbur said.A competitive rifle is honest and will be honest with any barrel.you just need to be able to believe the gun when it tells you a load or barrel are crap.JMHO jim
 
j mckinnie said:
what Wilbur said.A competitive rifle is honest and will be honest with any barrel.you just need to be able to believe the gun when it tells you a load or barrel are crap.JMHO jim
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Yes, what Wilbur and Jim said...........

cale
 
I agree and disagree with both Al and Francis on the basis of one rifle and one match. I once owned a very fine 3 tenths rifle with the occasional high 2. Those high 2s looked like 0s to me. I was seldom last but not much higher as there was a guy that was destined to be last every time and I prayed he would show. I didn't dare hold as that would make the intolerable 3 a 6. Then, one weekend we drove all night to a range in Virginia and the wind blew hard and changed harder. The other guys were shooting 5s and I continued to shoot 3s - won almost everything. It's a tough concept to grasp but I think that was a hummer on a different level.
 
Wilbur says, "I suppose I'm the outlier here (as always) by strongly disagreeing that "everything" is important. If you have the right rifle, nothing else is important aside from keeping your shoes shined so you'll look good in the picture. There's just too much evidence to think otherwise. It's right there before you and has always been. The forest and the trees come to mind....

The difficult part is getting your hands on the right rifle. I don't have any advice for that other than paying the guy that has one what he wants for it. "

If you have read Wilbur's comments over time, he has expressed this idea a number of times before. I have come to believe this is true no matter which discipline you shoot. Point blank group, Score, or long range. If there is a rifle that consistently beats you over time, buy it if at all possible. Sometimes, it is just not possible if you still want to eat.

Joe
 
caroby said:
Yes, what Wilbur and Jim said...........

cale
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and that ain't all. Sometimes changing bullets will tell you it ain't always the barrel or load.

I did that two years ago at a match and the groups got way smaller than they were. The guy next to me did the same thing with better results as well..
 
A competitive Rifle,in the hands of a skilled shooter, often wins trophy's. Separate the two and the the results are not so impressive.

Just an observation.


Glenn
 
By the same token, an uncompetive rifle, in the hands of a skilled shooter does not often win trophys.

Same observation.

Bergur
 
GOOD rifles in the hands of complete novices have won lots of wood....

A disagreeable observation, if you're an "it's the indian, not the bow," sort of guy.

al
 
Because I no longer shoot a 6ppc I won't reply as to why one doesn't shoot...but I have been shooting score with a 30Br for some time now and have had some degree of sucess with it...I fell into a slump about a year ago...i could not shoot more than 9 or 10 Xs at 100 yds...and on occassion I would shoot a 249...I changed barrels and found that the problem still exsisted...changed rear bag, front rest, bullet brands/weight, and oh yeah new scope..no change...getting to the point of changing prescription glasses...I decided to go back to my "old" brass that had been fired 25+ times...and "bingo" back to shooting 1s and 2s...I had decided that my old brass (1.510") wouldn't work in the newer "jackie Schmit" (1.560") chamber...I bought new brass "Blue Box"....made about 200/300 pieces weight sorted etc, and none of it will give me consistant results...the old brass is the "Gold Box" 2007 vintage stuff and has been annealed 3-4 times...
In my humble opinion BRASS is a real factor in accuracy...I have 17, 18, and 19 twist 30BR barrels cut with the same reamer all shoot extremely well with the same old brass...my experience is now become superstition for me...I wouldn't touch "Blue Box" brass on a bet...

Eddie in Texas
 
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A Hall of Fame Shooter once told me its all about barrels & bullets. If you hang around long enough & put your time in at the range this will become evident. You will be able to find the tune on a new barrel in less than 50 rounds. My experience is in about 25 rounds. If you have great barrels & magic bullets that Ratigan talks about. You will have to learn about bag set up & shooting style that works for you & is in your budget. GOOD LUCK & dont give up. Also find a mentor. Don't forget to have fun or you will get frustrated.Russell M
 
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