The dreaded 2 and 1................

I have had issues

with both rear bags and front rests. Sometime last year, I got involved in a discussion about rear bags and the ears thereon. I found, for me, that short ears that are close together allow the edges of the flat on the bottom of my buttstocks to form a nice chanel and thus, stay put. I also have a Protector with the Miricle Fabric medium ears and it seems to work well, now that I filled the ears up properly.

I have used a Farley front rest for a very long time and won't go back to the "Conventional Type" rest. The Farley has been and may still be the source of some problems. I don't quite know what to do about it but have wondered if floating the upright post might allow it to accept any angle one cranks into it with the handle, thus eliminating any binding. At least one of the upscale front rests the RF guys use has a floating front pedistle under the front bag. (If only they had a Joy Stick :) Mebby a Lazy Suzan under the rear bag would give the same effect?

Oh, I should point out, I am strictly a Score Shooter. This may make a difference in some of these issues.
 
There is no telling just what bag setup works best. Like Al said, there are too many variables. But I'll tell this story: went to the 100 yard indoor range today, to work on a load with a different powder for my 1K Light Gun.

The old load was 88.4 grains Rel-25. It shot pretty good, but 79 grains of H-4831-SC shot better, one group at .110, and none were big. I was hoping for a zero, but it wasn't to be. And no, these weren't three-shot groups.

Now as you may have noticed, that's a lot of powder. The way to shoot this rifle is to shove the forearm into the stop, hard. Pre-load the left hand so to speak, then let the left hand take most of the recoil. There is so much torque on firing the rear bag moves a little, so you have to muscle it a bit to get back on target. (Except for that torque part, it sounds a bit like how Humble Henry shot his .30 BR.)

As the groups show, it works just fine. With all the pushing & shoving going on, you can be sure the contact was NOT exactly the same on each shot. I think the key is using the forearm hand as noted. YMMV.

Rest details: Old Hohen windage top on a Hart pedestal, newish Protector 3-stitch rear bag with medium ears.

Moral: If you're getting 2&1 with a setup, try holding it.
 
I'm with Jerry Dailey - Would bet a Wendy's combo (single)...(no, make that w/cheese) that the rifle is throwing those shots all by its lonesome self. I would also bet a "Frosty" that it will fix itself at some point (much too late) and you will never know what the problem was. You may think you found the problem since you'll be changing something every target but if you change back you'll see that whatever it was you changed no longer causes the flyer.

Some (many) rifles are like old folks - rock solid for a few shots and then do someting entirely stupid.
 
Wilbur I wish I could agree with you but until I find someone who is willing to give this thing a try I am not giving up on it on my own.

I guess that makes me naive (sp) in to what you and Jerry are trying to say.........
 
CYanchycki said:
Wilbur I wish I could agree with you but until I find someone who is willing to give this thing a try I am not giving up on it on my own.

I guess that makes me naive (sp) in to what you and Jerry are trying to say.........
Click to expand...

That's the correct choice but try not to go out that sandbag limb too far.
 
I wasn't saying to give up on it untill you have tried another bullet and another charge. We know a HOT load can spit bullets but 29.2 does not sound hot. But it may be for that rifle. I dont give up on a barrel ( cant afford to) untill I have tried a different load and bullet. If that dont fix it I dont waste more bullets and powder. Why not Try a bullet that measures a little more than what your shooting and/or a lighter charge? The reason I say dont waste too much time on the bags. I have watched too many bag squeezers whip me good with the most awfull set ups you ever seen. some with the butt of stocks way up in the ears and some bottomed out. Good luck and we hope you find the problem
 
Thanks for clearing that up Jerry. I as you cannot afford to just set barrels aside. I guess they could be rechambered into 6br's for the gopher patch.

Anyways I understand not getting hell bent on my set up but I had to do one last test with the 3 bags I have. The Protektor cordura ears in the picture, the Edgewood Frog and the all leather Protektor with leather bunny ears. Here is what I have found doing this on the kitchen table this AM waiting for the race to begin.

I have played this AM with all set ups and have found a few things out.

Of the 3 bags I have, will send pics later, the most stable platform is the Protektor with the short cordura ears. When I mean stable I mean the rifle rolls the least in the bags when opening and closing the bolt.

The next stable is the all leather Protektor with the short leather bunny ears. The drawback is the ears do not even come close to matching the keel angle so just a small portion of the stock rides on the keel. Not sure if good or bad but it worked in the past and I would think still work. The bag is hard but the ears I feel have just the right fill. With used bounce sheet in the ears no sticking at all. I sat dry firing it off of the table looking out the window and NO cross hair movement at all.

The way it looks in the pic, the butt is about as far back as I can comfortably set up so as to not hit the hump with my body. I have a good reference for set up with the stock tape for repeatability. You see in the pics really no angle to the ears on this rear bag. The stock also rides on the edges of the keel. A donut is required under this bag to stop it fromn rocking for and aft slightly.

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Okay here is the Boob bag. I can set it up with the butt further back slightly as the hump is not as big. With this as well I am not seeing any crosshair jump on dry firing. It is stable but appears not as much as the Protektor bunny/cordura ears. This is softer leather as it was really designed for the bag squeezer but filled really good it can and will stay firm. The ears have a little better angle than the previous Protektor. Another setup in theory that I can be happy with. Has a little more side stock contact than the leather bunny ear bag.

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Finally with the Protektor with Cordura the ear angle appears to be perfect for the keel. Lots of side stock contact but it rides on the bottom flat of the keel which in theory has been taught as a no no.

I can run it about the same as the other Protektor for the location of the butt stock.

The biggest observation when dry firing is there is cross hair movement on the first shot. In other words, pull the rifle back from the stock say 1", cycle the bolt, push back to the stop and pull the trigger, the hairs jump a bit. Leave the rifle there and cycle the bolt, fire and they stay put, cycle again and stays put. Maybe I will put this Protektor bag on the back burner for a while.

So this has been my observations this AM. Now to try it at the range and see what the targets tell. I must try this out.
 
Calvin,
I'm of the opinion that a good rifle,bullet,powder,tune, overcomes anything YOU can do to it, BUT......... All your rear bags look way too hard.Get a screw driver and sift a bunch of sand out of the body first, the ears second. And, As I posted before, get yer head out of the upper node and into the middle node. Don't waste a good barrel tryin' to get it to do what YOU want it to do. You might have a cream puff and you're tryin' to make it a triple decker wedding cake.
Joel
p.s. Calvin,looked at your earlier posts again, front bag is way too hard too. You can buy me a Sleeman's after you let some sand out.
 
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mate

Nader said:
Calvin,
I'm of the opinion that a good rifle,bullet,powder,tune, overcomes anything YOU can do to it, BUT......... All your rear bags look way too hard.Get a screw driver and sift a bunch of sand out of the body first, the ears second. And, As I posted before, get yer head out of the upper node and into the middle node. Don't waste a good barrel tryin' to get it to do what YOU want it to do. You might have a cream puff and you're tryin' to make it a triple decker wedding cake.
Joel
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get a video camera and film yourself.every time you pull the trigger you should have the same posture .are you cheaking it ?pushing it?
 
calvin stop in billings on your way to the cactus and i will help you with this rifle. i hope i still remember how to speak canadian. you may have to bring jeff
along to interpet. roger
 
Roger I am not going to the Cactus. Thanks for the offer. Spent the wad in Florida a few weeks ago. I will be in Billings for the state shoot the end of June. I have the last 2 weeks of June off. I am planning on being there for Thursday AM. Will hang anround and shoot there until the start of the following week when I will head North to Calgary for our Canadian Nationals. Hope to see you in Billings though........ Looking forward to that trip had a great time last year.

I have holidays also booked for the Nationals in Phoenix in October. That will be a solid 2 week trip for me. 3 days there and the same return.

Calvin
 
Calvin,

I tried to respond to your question here on the Canadian BR site but it wouldn't let me register for some reason. So I guess I'll post it on this site even though I'd rather not............long story for another day.

Anyways, I see no problem with having the stock ride the stitching. As was already pointed out by another contributor, threading is more solid than most bag material and acts more like contact points on a rail gun base. In other words, it has less "liveliness" to it and I think that is a good thing. I also think that bag shapes make a difference as does ear placement on the bags. I don't like bags with the ears on the very top of the main body because when the sand settles after a couple shots, the sand moves down away from the underside of the ears and leaves them somewhat to support the gun on their own. Then you have to fill up the main section again and it's easy to make the bag too hard. A good example of this type of bag is the Gatorbag from Edgewood. I messed around with one of those for two seasons with a certain stock that was very "fussy'" about what it wanted. Finally went to the Protektor DR bag last year and well, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...................

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Obviously, the last photo would not have happened if this setup didn't work.
It's hard to tell from the pic, but the ears are not on the top of the main bag with the DR. The whole bag is angled to match the angle of our legal tapered BR stocks so the top of the sand column itself is above and forward of the ears. This really made this setup consistent and it tracks like it's on a rail now.
Btw, the stock in this photo IS NOT the fussy stock! That baby is long gone...........

Good luck!
 
Calvin,

I tried to respond to your question here on the Canadian BR site but it wouldn't let me register for some reason. So I guess I'll post it on this site even though I'd rather not............long story for another day.

Thanks Grouper for going out on a limb here with your thoughts. Appreciate it. Have a lot to think about and try.

On a side note to register on our small Canadian BR site you have to e-mail Rick and he will let you in. Small 1 man show and that is the only way he can control all the spammers.

Thanks again
Calvin
 
Goodgrouper - I can apologize for myself or all others if you would allow. Some things boil down to principle and that's difficult to fix.
 
Wilbur said:
Goodgrouper - I can apologize for myself or all others if you would allow. Some things boil down to principle and that's difficult to fix.
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Wilbur, no need to apologize. And it has nothing to do with principles. I, and many others, just get repelled at some of the stupidity that is allowed to go on here these days. You've allowed a few "keyboard" shooters to continually stir up emotions and basically run off most folks who were solid contributors. I think you know who I'm talking about..........they've got a good pi$$ing match going in another thread in General Discussion right now actually. If these problem posters are allowed to stay here simply because you don't want to offend them by asking them to leave, then you will run the risk of alienating those of us who don't like what they are turning this forum into. I have no reason to come to this site and post any information about any BR related topic if I know that I'm just going to have to defend myself from some keyboard jockey who doesn't even shoot BR in the first place! Also, you have elected to make moderators out of a couple guys who are a bit on the "abrasive" side themselves. Maybe I'm mistaken, but aren't moderators supposed to be moderate? And aren't they supposed to use their deletion powers to dissolve conflicts rather than just delete what they don't agree with, thereby actually escalating the conflict? I mean, one of them actually admits to be a curmudgeon like he's proud of it!
Maybe I'm out in left field on all this, but I do know that if you have good folks second guessing themselves before they hit the "submit post" button, you will limit the depth and capability of your forum. Just my 2 pesos.:)
 
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GoodGrouper
Jim you can put people you don't want to hear from on your ignore list.Wilbur got rid of the Supermoderators and now you can put them on your ignore list as well.
Lynn
 
Well...let's assume I asked some folks to leave and they did. Alright then, who's next?
 
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OK a question and a half.
I put the loop portion of velcro on my front rest running side to side to help with friction and softness.
1 Is it legal?
1/2 shouldnt that also work in putting over the stitching area on a rear bag?

I also got a DR bag last year... great but the only problem I have with it is I sometimes hit the right front corner with my hand and have even found my hand resting on it if I didnt pay attention.
 
Lynn said:
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GoodGrouper
Jim you can put people you don't want to hear from on your ignore list.Wilbur got rid of the Supermoderators and now you can put them on your ignore list as well.
Lynn
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Thanks Lynn. The ignore list is certainly one tool we "little people" can use. But it is really just a Band-Aid solution for the cancer. I'd rather just see the tumors cut out by those in power.
 
Wilbur said:
Well...let's assume I asked some folks to leave and they did. Alright then, who's next?
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Well, I won't say any names, but here's several hints:
He shoots "teen aggs with his AR-15". He has "beat many 6ppc shooters with it". He complains about NBRSA and UBR rules and regs though he's never actually registered in either or shot in either type of match. He ALWAYS has to have the last word. And he's been warned over and over to stop his bad behavior. Can you guess it yet or should I go on? I've got buckets of ammo.......
 
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