testing ammo.

[mr. nobody]

when i was shooting 5,20&25 shot groups i was looking for fliers in the ammo. i was figuring if there was no fliers it would be great ammo for shooting score. so far i have figured out that great grouping ammo and rifles don't always shoot great scores. then again it could be that i'm the problem not the ammo or the rifle. i was pinching the trigger when i shot the rifle. after talking to james pappas i'm going to change that and see how it does. he said pinching the trigger makes them shoot high often. also after talking to james and taking advice from others on here i'm going to check the torque settings on the bolts to see if that helps. i'm also going to check the rest and rifle to make sure i have it tracking at its best and not binding up when it recoils.

now if the rain would stop i can get out and test everything one step at a time and see what helps and hurts. i have one match left this year then the rifle gets a new barrel and tuner. more than likely a new stock as well.

 

[rbs]

Question

Mr. Nobody,

I have also been working on trying to come up with the best technique for testing ammo. The object is to shoot as little as possible while still differentiating which lot of ammo is the best. Many people believe that I shoot every lot of ammo I get for resale, but when I got in this business I quickly learned that I could not afford to do that. We just have too many different lots coming in. I have tried shooting 25 shot groups, 2 shot groups, 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, and shooting for score. Right now (and this could change at any time) here is my procedure.
Shoot 1 5-shot group
Zero my scope for that group
Shoot another 5 shot group to confirm my scope is set correctly
Shoot 1 target for score
Shoot each sighter target that is available
Shoot 5 shot groups until the entire box is gone



This limits my testing to 1 box of ammo. If this test goes well, I will repeat the test the next day. So, I shoot a total of 2 boxes. This is the minimum that I can shoot and feel comfortable buying a large quantity of ammo. A bad lot is usually eliminated quickly, but a good lot takes more testing to confirm.

I like to test my ammo by shooting for score because I shoot for score in competition. I have also observed that some ammo shoots great groups, but will not shoot for score. The obvious reason for that would seem to be the tracking of the stock, but that does not seem to be the case. I am not sure what is the reason. If a rifle shoots good groups it should shoot good scores, but it does not seem to always work that way. So, I test ammo by shooting for score.



When I tune my rifle, I shoot groups. I had not thought of shooting score while tuning instead of shooting groups until I read this thread. I think I will give it a try.[/QUOT


You have a rifle that will shoot where you aim it, but only if you are shooting groups. When you attempt to shoot scores with this same rifle it doesn't shoot where you aim it, and you don't what is causing this? I would get rid of that rifle as it has a mind of it's own and can't be trusted.

 

[dankillough]

from RBS "I would get rid of that rifle as it has a mind of it's own and can't be trusted."

I guess I had better sell my wind flags too.

 

[mr. nobody]

dan,
you just shot a 2500!! damn it man don't change a thing!!! you got perfection at least one time so rock on with what you have!!!

i'm just trying to learn and figure out if it is me(and that could be a very large part of the problem here) or if it is the rifle and ammo.

 

[J Pappas]

?????

Mr. Nobody,

I have also been working on trying to come up with the best technique for testing ammo. The object is to shoot as little as possible while still differentiating which lot of ammo is the best. Many people believe that I shoot every lot of ammo I get for resale, but when I got in this business I quickly learned that I could not afford to do that. We just have too many different lots coming in. I have tried shooting 25 shot groups, 2 shot groups, 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups, 10 shot groups, and shooting for score. Right now (and this could change at any time) here is my procedure.
Shoot 1 5-shot group
Zero my scope for that group
Shoot another 5 shot group to confirm my scope is set correctly
Shoot 1 target for score
Shoot each sighter target that is available
Shoot 5 shot groups until the entire box is gone



This limits my testing to 1 box of ammo. If this test goes well, I will repeat the test the next day. So, I shoot a total of 2 boxes. This is the minimum that I can shoot and feel comfortable buying a large quantity of ammo. A bad lot is usually eliminated quickly, but a good lot takes more testing to confirm.

I like to test my ammo by shooting for score because I shoot for score in competition. I have also observed that some ammo shoots great groups, but will not shoot for score. The obvious reason for that would seem to be the tracking of the stock, but that does not seem to be the case. I am not sure what is the reason. If a rifle shoots good groups it should shoot good scores, but it does not seem to always work that way. So, I test ammo by shooting for score.



When I tune my rifle, I shoot groups. I had not thought of shooting score while tuning instead of shooting groups until I read this thread. I think I will give it a try.[/QUOT


You have a rifle that will shoot where you aim it, but only if you are shooting groups. When you attempt to shoot scores with this same rifle it doesn't shoot where you aim it, and you don't what is causing this? I would get rid of that rifle as it has a mind of it's own and can't be trusted.

I would point out that Dan won the ARA A-Line last year and ownes a rifle that has shot a 2500.

 

[gambler]

finally i know where all the group shooters have gone...they are testing ammo

 

[Dave S]

Mr Nobody:

If you are who I think you are, last year you had a Suhl that was shooting world record IR-50/50 practice targets on Rimfire Central. Then you went and started changing things around and the Suhl stopped shooting.. Now you want to rebarrel, restock and retune your rifle.. What if you rebarrel, restock and retune your rifle and it doesn't shoot any better scores..??

If your rifle is shooting good groups, then it is not the rifle, but either the setup or your techniques... Before you ruin a good rifle, check your setups and look at your techniques.. Sometimes buying the most expensive equipment does not help you.... I have a factory barrelled Suhl and a factory barreled Win 52C that are very competitive and yes they are also great group shooters..

Just my $.02 worth

Dave

 

[mr. nobody]

it's not the suhl. this is a hall actioned rifle with a lilja barrel. i only changed the stock on the suhl. the suhl still shoots great, but not in a one piece rest. i have to use a rear bag and a fudd topped front rest for it. my cousin used it in the last match. it was his first match and his last 2 targets were much better than any of mine with this new rifle.

 

[chisqr]

Regarding post #15:

At least some of the views are from people who see the title and are looking for a discussion of how to do the testing in a way that gives some specific data that can be objectively compared rather than the more common anecdotes about how "this works for me", or "I did this and I won such and such a match". This is important because the question is about testing ammo, and as has been said, a good shooter with less than the best ammo or equipment can win against a not as good shooter with better ammo or equipment.

Unfortunately some very experienced shooters who have studied this question choose not to post about what they've discovered because when they do they get the forum equivalent of being beaten up, not for being right or wrong, but for commiting the offense of trying to bring some concrete and comparable numbers into the discussion. In the process people usually show up just to say that they are "making things too complicated" without any real attempt to ask and understand, or at least show why what has been presented really is "too complicated" other than the proverbial "because I said so and I'm right".

As far as those who take part in the beating, I'm not talking about anyone in particular, just making a general observation about how things seem to go, and why some of the views may not lead to posts.

Even so, I don't want to come off as critical of the posters here so far. I think the question in the original post is a good one, and the goal in testing was stated perfectly as:

... The object is to shoot as little as possible while still differentiating which lot of ammo is the best. ...

 

[dartplayer1]

mr. nobody

you said i have had others that shoot much higher scores than me shoot it and come out with the scores around what i shoot. when i try thier rifles i shoot scores like they do.

When you have them shoot your rifle do they shoot it on your rest or theirs?

When you shoot thier rifle do you shoot it on your rest or theirs?

 

[mr. nobody]

mr. nobody

you said i have had others that shoot much higher scores than me shoot it and come out with the scores around what i shoot. when i try thier rifles i shoot scores like they do.

When you have them shoot your rifle do they shoot it on your rest or theirs?

When you shoot thier rifle do you shoot it on your rest or theirs?

we've tried it each way.me and my rifle on thier rest and thiers on mine. we've looked at everything.

i have a new barrel and a new stock on the way for this rifle. i'm going to try a rva tuner on it this winter when i start testing ammo for it. hopefully next year things will be better with it. if not i'll be using the suhl again!!! i know it shoots but not in a one piece rest. i have alot of money in the hall actioned rifle so i'm ganna try to do everything to get it right!!!