Sync flags to a computer?.......

S

scott mims

Guest
Has anyone tried to sync their flags to a computer...... Lets say you have a way to..... When you shoot your first shot you click the enter button and it stores the info it got from each of your flags. Then...... When that condition comes back you get a "beep" to let you know the condition is as close to exact as it was in your first shot.

I'm not saying we should allow this but was wondering if it would work or has anyone tried it? Wilbur and I use to talk about this kind of stuff 10 years ago ?
 
Well...... at the risk

scott mims said:
Has anyone tried to sync their flags to a computer...... Lets say you have a way to..... When you shoot your first shot you click the enter button and it stores the info it got from each of your flags. Then...... When that condition comes back you get a "beep" to let you know the condition is as close to exact as it was in your first shot.

I'm not saying we should allow this but was wondering if it would work or has anyone tried it? Wilbur and I use to talk about this kind of stuff 10 years ago ?
Click to expand...

of opening a S%#storm, yes, there is a system that has been used in Texas. Mr Hensler's system works.

That said, I for one, find the inception of electronics into benchrest SHOOTING to be a travesty. With what I understand about the system the Mr. Hensler's genius developed, it is only one or 2 steps removed from taking the human out of the equation. That is too close for me. This sport is supposed to be a human endeavor, not a cybernetic exercise.

David
 
WiFi Wind Flags and phone app

I ran such a system past the club guys. The flags were modified miniature commercial weather stations that transmit wind direction, speed, temperature, humidity and pressure with a phone app to sit on the bench, could be pre-set to beep when all the flags were pointing in a certain way, wind was selected to change the colour of the pointer, such that one waited for a green arrow and a beep to indicate that a pre-set condition had been reached.

Range was a problem but not difficult to overcome with an off-the shelf WiFi booster. Also incorporated a target cam.

Never progressed as it was pointed out, illegal for local (Australian) comps and also not quite cricket.

It was only a concept to prove what is possible. Also one of the blokes remarked that the "senders had better be bulletproof!"

Even the remote target viewing camera was frowned upon.

I ended up abandoning the project and devoted my energies to making a set of decent ball raced conventional wind flags (best thing I ever did to improve my scores)

* doghunter *
 
I've considered doing something similar to what Mr. Hensler has done, but with a series of stepper motors or servo motors linked to the flags with a plc(or muliple). The idea is a single shot on the target, crosshairs corrected to poi, and then just sit back and pull the trigger, virtually anytime, letting the stepper motors move the rest to compensate for/by info received from the flags.

I think it's doable, but will change the game into something too far from what it is today.--Mike

p.s.--It wouldn't be 100% but would give the best shooters, on their best day, a run for their money and would likely beat them silly when the wind is really blowing and switching.
 
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I have been experimenting with various versions of Jerry's systems for the past 6 or 7 years. I have been experimenting with his latest system for the past year.

Please rest assured that anyone who simply watches the computer screen to determine when to pull the trigger will be sorely disappointed with their aggs!

The main reason is the lag time in the electronic sensors. The electronics always tell you what JUST happened. Only your eyeballs can tell you what IS happening. I have shot some tiny groups using the electronics and I have shot some horrendous groups using the electronics. Of the 25 record shots you can probably get away with shooting 15 to 20 of them based solely on the electronics. The group killing shots occur when one of your tails kicks up or your flag direction changes and it takes a little while to register the change on the computer display. Basically the computer says it is still okay to pull the trigger, but if you had been watching the flags, you would have known better and put on the brakes!

The electronic flags are simply another tool to help you read the wind. They are only effective for hunt and peckers. I watch my flags and when I feel that my condition has returned, I look down to the electronics to see if they agree with my visual assessment. If everything lines up I pull the trigger. If the electronics don't agree, then I am back up to watching the flags. If anything, they will teach you how to read your windflags better. The electronics will never be quicker than the eye and therefore will never replace our old fashioned windflags. Anyone who thinks that they can shoot from only a computer screen is a fool and I have proven myself a fool many times in the past.

ps As far as the stepper motor idea goes, all I can say is even more lag time and guaranteed caterpillars! You might get 1 or 2 small groups but not a competitive agg. IMHO :cool:
 
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There is no fundamental reason why electronics can't be faster than a human. A quick Google search says the average human reaction time to a visual stimulus is 0.25 seconds. Electronics could beat that easily by factor of 10.

It would be quite valuable for me to have a trigger lock that would engage when the conditions changed suddenly.:rolleyes:
 
mks said:
There is no fundamental reason why electronics can't be faster than a human. A quick Google search says the average human reaction time to a visual stimulus is 0.25 seconds. Electronics could beat that easily by factor of 10.

It would be quite valuable for me to have a trigger lock that would engage when the conditions changed suddenly.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

The problem is:

MANUALLY AND MECHANICALLY ACTUATED
FIRING MECHANISM. This phrase shall include an electric
trigger with an arming feature that is manually operated. All
components must be within the rifle. The use of pressure fluid
or remote actuation is not allowed. This paragraph applicable
to the 10 1/2 and 13 1/2 classes.

The dummy behind the wheel still has to react and pull the trigger at the right time. .25 seconds for the dummy's reaction time plus .50 to .75 seconds for electronic wind flag lag puts you a long ways behind what is happening on the range.
 
Lawrence,
I would like to see your system. What sensors are you using for wind speed and direction?

A hot wire anemometer has a response time of about half a millisecond. I know it's not legal for some. Just thinking about the possibilities.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Below are links to 2 videos.

The first shows the sensors. The anemometer cups drive a DC motor that generates a current. The flag is driving an elliptical piston hooked up to a potentiometer. When the flag is at a full crosswind the full DC charge is allowed to flow through. As the flag goes from crosswind to null, the potentiometer allows less of the signal to come through until no signal comes through at the null. The elliptical drive under the flag makes it so that when the flag first comes off of the crosswind the signal is barely reduced. As it approaches null the signal is being reduced very rapidly. In this way the signal coming through is representative of the crosswind component or bullet push only.

The next problem is the weighting of each sensor. A 10 MPH crosswind at 10 yards has much more effect on your bullet push than a 10 MPH crosswind at 90 yards. We came up with 2 solutions. One solution is to space the flags evenly and create an algorithm to reduce the amount of current each sensor is allowed to contribute as the flags get further downrange. The other solution was to divide the range into segment that each contributed the same amount of push. For example on a 100 yard range, the first 29 yards push your bullet as much as the last 71 yards. With only 2 flags, you would put one in the middle of each segment at 14 yards and the other one at 65 yards. I use 7 flags, so at 100 yards I place them at 4, 12,20,30,41,55 and 79 yards. According to our calculations, each flag will contribute equally to the overall push on the target at 100 yards. For 200 yards, simply double the yardages. With 7 flags, the first 8 yards push the bullet the same amount as the last 41 yards. The final 10 yards to the target only contribute 1% of your total bullet push!

1st Video

The second video focuses more on the display and it is explained in the video.

2nd Video

Enjoy!
 
Auto stop

It would be quite valuable for me to have a trigger lock that would engage when the conditions changed suddenly.
Click to expand...

Oh good Lord YES.... This I need.!

An at times the Auto DON'T start..... You know, that first shot ya gotta chase and the sweat beeds pile up...Guuulp..!
 
Lawrence,
Thanks so much! The display is nice, very intuitive.

I'm guessing that the majority of your lag is coming from the mechanical components. With hot wire, there is nothing that moves that you have to wait on: http://www.tsi.com/uploadedFiles/Product_Information/Literature/Catalogs/Hotwire_Catalog_2980465.pdf You could even use three-wire probes to measure all three components of the air velocity vector at each position.

Ultrasonic probes are slower and more expensive. Their main use seems to be in high-tech weather stations. But they have advantages in bad weather over hot wire: https://s.campbellsci.com/documents/us/product-brochures/b_csat3.pdf
 
mks

Looked at these a long time ago. Cheapest I could find was $2,600 per head or $18,200 just for the sensors in a 7 flag system! Do you happen to know if the prices have come down?
 
There are a few issues here that has not been discussed. With flags, we take note of patterns, and use them to make predictions of future events. It is my belief that it is in our nature to be able to more easily see these patterns, through the use of flags, and the various types of wind indicators than with a numerical display. One thing that Lawrence and Jerry know that may not have occurred to those who are inexperienced in this area is the issue of how to weight the input of the various sensors. This is at the core of the problem and cannot be gotten around. Also there is the issue of populating matches. If someone truly came up with a system that gave superior results all of the time, given what we know about the probable cost, how many would want to compete if it was a requirement to be competitive? It would be like rowing in a power boat race.
 
Jerry Hensler

Jerry Hensler often Scores the targets at the New Braunsfels matches as well as shoot. He used to bring his latest computerized indicator inventions to the matches. I like gadjets, so I asked a lot of questions. Of course,the technical explanations went over my head.

Looking at the Computer screen that Jerry had positioned on his bench, I asked. ‘When do you pull the trigger’ As I recalled, Jerry pointed out the cursor on the screen that is activated by sensors that are strategically located between the bench and the target. He said to pick a spot on the screen where the cursor consistently holds (A few seconds), Go to the sighter and see what you get. If you like what you see, try to pull, when the cursor is at the same or close to the same position on the screen. Not easy to do in windy,,switchy ,conditions, which we get quite often at New Brausnfels . Not easy using traditional wind flags. You could tell that by looking at my target.

Jerry stresses having your rifle in good tune for the device to work properly. He would let us all know when our rifles were not in tune, because he scored targets.

I have seen him Kick our butts with his electronics. I have also seen him struggle when a sensor or two might fail to work for whatever reason.

Jerry…If you’re watching,correct me if I’m wrong about my recollections.





Glenn
 
Lawrence W. said:
Looked at these a long time ago. Cheapest I could find was $2,600 per head or $18,200 just for the sensors in a 7 flag system! Do you happen to know if the prices have come down?
Click to expand...

I assume you mean the ultrasonic sensors. No, I haven't priced them lately. It is usually a bad sign when they don't list a price, and you have to contact them for a quote.;) You can get hot wire sensors for as low as $17. (http://moderndevice.com/product/wind-sensor/) These are only 1D, but they are so cheap, you could use three to get 3D.
 
I don't build any SmartFlags anymore. L.W. is using the last set (SF4) I built a couple of years ago. I have put out information in the past if you want to build your own. If you build them yourself, the cost is not anymore than buying any good traditional flag ready built for you. They do not have to have a PC to be usable. A cheap digital voltmeter can be used to read the signal. I do have a few electronic probe style (SF2 & SF3) left over if you don't want to build them. They clamp around the stand below your traditional flag.

I am now building extreme sensitivity traditional flags based on the SF4 design for use in night shoots where the wind can be quite mild. When I got into ARA rimfire shooting at night, one of things I noticed is there were no flags that would reliably turn in very mild wind so I came up with these.

 
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