subcontracting

R

robbor

Guest
Just a heads up. One of the students in my machining class has his own shop and has been into to shooting for probably a year. He doesnt know that much about guns at all. He has been offered a deal as a subcontractor for someone claiming to be one of the best smiths in Ca. No coolant through bore for chambering, finish chambers by hand, says he doesnt have indicators to use to fully chamber by machine. When useing a smith you may want to ask more questions and confirm who is doing the work.
 
Are you sure he's been offered the deal, or is it just that "he's saying" he has? Sounds like more of an ego-feeding BS exercise than the real deal. If his knowledge and equipment is as you say and he really has the "deal," he'll likely either get laughed out of the business or sued out of it in short order.....
 
smith

supposidly they had a formal meeting last week. The student I know has to look in to getting an FFL, which was a requirement. Anyways, I have no idea what type of work was discussed, the relivant part is this is not the first gunsmith I have heard of subcontracting work. I know when I take something to a reputable gun smith, I dont want it reshipped off to the lowest bidder. Ask lots of questions.
 
subcontracting: It is going on all the time. Most of the time it is a company that does good work and a price is agreed on not necessarily the lowest bid and both parties keep their mouth shut so no one cares. As long as the product is a good as it can be made what difference does it make. Heat treating is nearly always subcontracted.
JMHO

Glenn
 
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A well known gunsmith will not risk his reputation on someone not qualified to or capable of doing the work. As far as farming out work some smiths will have someone qualified do bluing or some other metal coating or have someone do their engraving or checkering because of the time involved and expertise. But for the most part they do their own work.
 
I recently spent some time talking to a VERY famous,highly regarded pistol smith on the telephone.
I told him that my wife and I were planning a short vacation and we would be passing right by his shop.
I asked him if I could stop in and drop the revolver off and maybe take a look at something similar that he had there--and I also wanted to look at grips and since I was driving right buy, save the shipping costs---about 40 bucks.

He quickly said he was busy that weekend and would not be there.
I said well, I would be passing through on Friday would he be there then--more stammering and excuses.
I TRIED to ask some questions about the actual work to be preformed and got somewhat vague and short answers.
I got the impressions that it was just send me the revolver and a nice check, wait about 3 months and I'll get something back to you.

After talking to him I got the impression that he would not be doing the actual work and if I stopped in, there would be nothing to look at.

I ended up sending it to another smith and the whole experience was much different and much more pleasant.
I received my revolver back in 3 WEEKS and workmanship and attention to detail is top notch and I am very pleased.
To top it off, the smith I ended up using was $250.00 CHEAPER than the other guy.

Yeah, I believe some big names do use sub-contractors for sure---Just my humble opinion.

Rich
 
dipper said:
I recently spent some time talking to a VERY famous,highly regarded pistol smith on the telephone.
I told him that my wife and I were planning a short vacation and we would be passing right by his shop.
I asked him if I could stop in and drop the revolver off and maybe take a look at something similar that he had there--and I also wanted to look at grips and since I was driving right buy, save the shipping costs---about 40 bucks.

He quickly said he was busy that weekend and would not be there.
I said well, I would be passing through on Friday would he be there then--more stammering and excuses.
I TRIED to ask some questions about the actual work to be preformed and got somewhat vague and short answers.
I got the impressions that it was just send me the revolver and a nice check, wait about 3 months and I'll get something back to you.

After talking to him I got the impression that he would not be doing the actual work and if I stopped in, there would be nothing to look at.

I ended up sending it to another smith and the whole experience was much different and much more pleasant.
I received my revolver back in 3 WEEKS and workmanship and attention to detail is top notch and I am very pleased.
To top it off, the smith I ended up using was $250.00 CHEAPER than the other guy.

Yeah, I believe some big names do use sub-contractors for sure---Just my humble opinion.

Rich
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Just a thought. Several times I've had customers tell me they would be at my shop and I would stay here when I needed to run an errand of some sort. Many times they never show nor do they call. It's a major inconvenience.

Lots of times a visitor will ramble through the shop and handle everything they see. Usually without asking if it's OK and they ask questions that really have no answer simply because they don't know enough about the subject to ask the proper questions.

As for pricing I've seen 'custom' rifles built on a Remington action priced from $2,000 to nearly $6,000. None of my business how a man prices his work but in my opinion only the Lord, Himself, could make a Remington worth $5,000+ but if the gunsmith and customer agree on a price it's none of my business.
 
Its hard to make a living standing around the shop shooting the bull. A little of that might be a good thing but too much of it and the gunsmith falls further behind on delivery and has nothing to show for his time.

If you want to be a good customer, have some consideration for the guy doing the work and don't waste his time. Someone hanging around half a day costs him money.
 
Well known gunsmith

koginam said:
A well known gunsmith will not risk his reputation on someone not qualified to or capable of doing the work. As far as farming out work some smiths will have someone qualified do bluing or some other metal coating or have someone do their engraving or checkering because of the time involved and expertise. But for the most part they do their own work.
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Yep! Everything you just said is true. I would not take my work to someone who subbed out the chambering to another person. There are many well known smiths out there who do their own work. They may, as you mentioned, have a qualified person perform ancillary tasks but the smith does the machining work himself because his reputation rides on that.


Chino69
 
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customers

MColeman said:
Just a thought. Several times I've had customers tell me they would be at my shop and I would stay here when I needed to run an errand of some sort. Many times they never show nor do they call. It's a major inconvenience.

Lots of times a visitor will ramble through the shop and handle everything they see. Usually without asking if it's OK and they ask questions that really have no answer simply because they don't know enough about the subject to ask the proper questions.
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Mickey,
That's a very good point that bears mentioning. The better smiths are busy and really don't have time for tours or educating someone that hasn't done their homework. I like shooting the breeze with my gunsmith but when I visit his shop it is always to give him some work and to discuss my project, asking questions to define what I want him to do. I always call, out of common courtesy, before stopping in to ensure he will be able to meet me. When the project is done and he calls I am there that day with cash in hand.
Chino69
 
chino69 said:
Mickey,
That's a very good point that bears mentioning. The better smiths are busy and really don't have time for tours or educating someone that hasn't done their homework. I like shooting the breeze with my gunsmith but when I visit his shop it is always to give him some work and to discuss my project, asking questions to define what I want him to do. I always call, out of common courtesy, before stopping in to ensure he will be able to meet me. When the project is done and he calls I am there that day with cash in hand.
Chino69
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Chino,
Your post doesn't make much sense to me.
I wasn't asking for a tour or education--and I know a few things about revolvers and did my homework too.
If you read my post, I like you, WAS BRINGING WORK WITH ME and wanted to discuss my project---just like YOU said--and save $40.00 on shipping.
I did call ---just like you do.
So? whats your point.
If a smith charges 30 to 35% more than another for the same work, he better have a little time to talk to me or he doesn't get my money--no matter his reputation.
Like I said, the other smith spent a good deal of time talking to me about the work to be done and I KNOW he is busy--he had 40 revolvers on his benches and answered all my questions with facts and figures--not vague responses like the other guy---which led me to believe he wasn't the one doing the work.


Dipper
 
Subcontracting is one thing and visiting a shop is another..

Gunsmithing has become so specialized and CNC has made such a change in things. I can tell you I don't want bluing salts in my machine shop. Some services are so specialized and the equipment so expensive that it is better to farm out some work. I know of no gunsmith who conceals anothers work and says it is his work.

As for visiting a gunsmiths shop. Some gunsmiths have both a shop and retail facility. Gunsmiths who don't have a retail shop usually don't have any reason for visitors in their shop. Operating motor powered machinery requires ones full attention. Visitors are distractions. Mistakes, and injuries go up when machine operators are distracted.

Most visitors and callers don't think the clock is ticking when they visit or call. Gunsmithing is a service industry and time is money.

Rustystud
 
My point

dipper said:
Chino,
Your post doesn't make much sense to me.
I wasn't asking for a tour or education--and I know a few things about revolvers and did my homework too.
If you read my post, I like you, WAS BRINGING WORK WITH ME and wanted to discuss my project---just like YOU said--and save $40.00 on shipping.
I did call ---just like you do.
So? whats your point.
If a smith charges 30 to 35% more than another for the same work, he better have a little time to talk to me or he doesn't get my money--no matter his reputation.
Like I said, the other smith spent a good deal of time talking to me about the work to be done and I KNOW he is busy--he had 40 revolvers on his benches and answered all my questions with facts and figures--not vague responses like the other guy---which led me to believe he wasn't the one doing the work.


Dipper
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Dipper,
My point was to add to what Mickey said; I didn't mean to offend you nor was the education remark intended for you. My comments were meant to be general in nature.

The other point I was trying to make is that, since you hadn't done business with that smith before, you were an unknown. Maybe he didn't want to be blunt and tell you that he didn't want you in his shop.


Chino69
 
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Yeah Rusty, I know all about it---I build plastic injection molds and have had customers come in and ask questions and talk to staff etc.---never caused an injury and sometimes you have to be cordial to a good customer paying good money for work.
I guess it matters as to how you like to run your business---like I said if a smith wants big money , he better make a LITTLE time for me or I'll move on to some one that will.

Dipper
 
time for customers..

There is customer relations time and there is work time. You will pay for it one way or another.

Most Gunsmiths who are insured (a few are) can't allow visitors in the machinery operating area of their shop by insurance terms of the policy.

Rustystud
 
And I am familiar with insurance concerns too---I wasn't expecting a tour or to enter his shop---it wouldn't compare to the one I work in and I doubt it would have anything in it I don't see daily considering most of the equipment in our shop is $300,000.00 on up machine tools.
I was hoping to see similar revolvers and custom work and discuss work to be done to my revolver---I don't think it should be a problem to show a couple of revolvers to a new customer--and I think answers should be concrete and firm not vague and curt.
Anyway, I'm sure the smith in question gets plenty of work on his name alone and doesn't need me for a new customer.

dipper
 
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