Some discussion on the "new" IBS target, please.

[JerrySharrett]

Jerry

The guys at the Piedmont club don't seem to have any trouble with blue targets.

Dave

Dave, at 600 yards most shooters can't see bullet holes anyhoo.
Aiming on the 600 yard targets big blue square is not the same as trying to aim at a very finite point
on the target.

As you know, at the 100/200 game there needs to be a visible aiming point.

BTW, did you get the Corvette picture Jeff and I took?

Guys, my point in this thread is to find out who/why, etc. caused a non official target to be used at the HB/Varmint Nationals.

 

[Tom Libby]

Jerry,

As usual on BRC a lot of us get off the topic or change what direction it should be going. Sorry for Highjacking your post. As you did not ask about color etc. but why the targets got changed.

Tom

 

[goodgrouper]

I think the guy who came up with the idea of black ink for targets should have that target stapled to his forehead and be hung by his shoelaces from the moving backer line.

As a range officer, if I had a dollar for every time I've had to help some poor guy find his bullet holes in a black target at the range during deer season, I could retire tomorrow.

Sorry for the tangent, but I think the thickness should be left alone and changing the color would only be a good thing.

 

[glp]

I agree

I think the guy who came up with the idea of black ink for targets should have that target stapled to his forehead and be hung by his shoelaces from the moving backer line.

As a range officer, if I had a dollar for every time I've had to help some poor guy find his bullet holes in a black target at the range during deer season, I could retire tomorrow.

Sorry for the tangent, but I think the thickness should be left alone and changing the color would only be a good thing.

Black on white is good contrast for iron sight NRA competitions. We do some rimfire fun matches, benchrest at 100 yards and use a red on white target. Easy with both scope and irons. Much, much easier to see bullet holes in the red vs black. Iron sights are a non issue for IBS competition. My vote would be with red on white for IBS targets across the 1-2-3 hundred yard discipline if any changes are ever proposed. I like the NBRSA hunter score targets color combo. Greg

 

[JerrySharrett]

I think the guy who came up with the idea of black ink for targets should have that target stapled to his forehead and be hung by his shoelaces from the moving backer line.

As a range officer, if I had a dollar for every time I've had to help some poor guy find his bullet holes in a black target at the range during deer season, I could retire tomorrow.

Jim, we are not discussing deer hunters with their $30 Wally World 2-6X scope and their Wally World Hunters Special 30-30 who are still shooting out of the box of ammo they bought 7 years ago. . We are talking about targets being used at the Nationals!


Tom, no problem on broadening the discussion but any graphics art consultant will tell you that the most contrasting colors are black and white.

 

[ReedG]

1. My old cloudy eyes still "see" black-on-white the best.

2. Why try to fix something that isn't broken. I read these forums several times a day and don't ever remember seeing a post complaining that the group target had lines too thick or that groups were getting mismeasured because of bold lines. Must be quiet times at IBS.

3. The target crew (or match director) that put out mismatched targets which, apparently, some shooters got and some didn't and some got a whole match worth and others didn't is a puzzle to me.

 

[Charles E]

. . . no problem on broadening the discussion but any graphics art consultant will tell you that the most contrasting colors are black and white.

While that's true Jerry (& I've been know to teach graphic arts consultants), there are three things we're concerned with about the target. (1) The background, (2) the foreground, and (3) the eventual bullet holes. They need to contrast one with the others.

And as one who has a good shooting buddy who is color blind -- red & green wind flags don't help him so much -- that's an area where a medical consultant might be of use. My color blind friend is why my flags are solid red on one side, and striped black & white on the other. I have no idea about what target colors would help or hurt him -- and I think there are different forms of color-blindess, aren't there?

For cheapest costs, we want only two colors on the targets. Just which those two should be could use some study.

BTW, I agree with you on the heavier bull. Aside from just being able to see it when things aren't so good, there's another use. I've used it to gauge mirage (hence air movement) during conditions like you sometimes find in Match 1 -- there isn't much air, but the dot on the scope will move from the inside to the outside of the ring, so you know it's there. And when you have to lay down a small one -- as everyone is trying to do with match 1, that helps. For me, this takes the heavy ring -- the puny rings are too thin.

 

[JerrySharrett]

While that's true Jerry (& I've been know to teach graphic arts consultants), there are three things we're concerned with about the target. (1) The background, (2) the foreground, and (3) the eventual bullet holes. They need to contrast one with the others.

And as one who has a good shooting buddy who is color blind -- red & green wind flags don't help him so much -- that's an area where a medical consultant might be of use. My color blind friend is why my flags are solid red on one side, and striped black & white on the other. I have no idea about what target colors would help or hurt him -- and I think there are different forms of color-blindess, aren't there?

For cheapest costs, we want only two colors on the targets. Just which those two should be could use some study.

BTW, I agree with you on the heavier bull. Aside from just being able to see it when things aren't so good, there's another use. I've used it to gauge mirage (hence air movement) during conditions like you sometimes find in Match 1 -- there isn't much air, but the dot on the scope will move from the inside to the outside of the ring, so you know it's there. And when you have to lay down a small one -- as everyone is trying to do with match 1, that helps. For me, this takes the heavy ring -- the puny rings are too thin.

Thanks Charles, now we we're getting somewhere in the mechanics of target design. I had also forgot about the RG colorblindness and there is an amazingly large part of our population that is RG blind . (Protanopia, deuteranopia, protanomaly, and deuteranomaly just to name a few color challenged conditions.)

Note- The term color challenged is probably more correct in our PC world than color blindness!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness

 

[glp]

In reality...

There is no such thing as color.

 

[JerrySharrett]

In color

There is no such thing as color.

There is no such thing as reality.

 

[expiper]

Jerry ,,,,I like the blue,,,,it helps to see the bullet holes at long range ,,,I need all the help I can get,,,,I dont want to see anything black on the target except holes!!! preferably close together and in the middle,,,,Roger

 

[L. Costa]

I sure had trouble seeing. Shooting south, lots of mirage and terrible targets. As some of you guys know I score at our match in Florida. To me, when shooters come to our match it's all about the shooters, not about the scorer. I've scored thousands of targets and I never thought the dark ring made it that much harder to score. With good light it's not a problem. From a shooter's point of view I can tell you that the targets at Holton sucked.
My eyes ain't what they used to be either, black / white contrast is the best for me as a shooter and as a scorer it's fine too.
Larry

 

[goodgrouper]

Jim, we are not discussing deer hunters with their $30 Wally World 2-6X scope and their Wally World Hunters Special 30-30 who are still shooting out of the box of ammo they bought 7 years ago. . We are talking about targets being used at the Nationals!

Now that's funny stuff right there. So true too!


I realize I made a tangent comment, but it does tie in with the problem here---sometimes we can't see lines and/or bullet holes. If we can't see lines, it's because they are not thick enough or enough contrast, if we can't see bullet holes it's because they blend in with the color of the ink. I think Larry was right on when he talked about black not being a problem for the scorer. With enough light, most scorers can distinguish the black smudge from the black lines. I see this being a bigger problem for the shooter. I have great glass and better than 20/20 vision and there are still many times when I can't see bullet holes in the black square at 200. And I know I'm not alone. How many times have guys tried to get on paper and had shots go into the black square that they didn't see until the target was hanging on the wailing wall?

I would think that with old eyes, a group shooter would rather see his bullet holes than the lines if he had to pick between the two. Reason being is that in group, your first shot is a freebie. We want it to go where we planned in relationship to the 10 ring, but if it doesn't, a good shooter knows to chase it. So from that point on, you're aiming at a bullet hole, not a ring. If that bullet hole blends in with the ink, it's much harder to see it. If the mirage is so bad you can't see the rings, you still can usually see a bullet or two clumped together so long as they don't land in black ink! Obviously, if I can see both lines and bullets, it's much better. But at 200 in bad mirage, the lines are going to disappear regardless of the holy black/white contrast anyway, so we might as well make it so we can at least see our bullet holes in blue or red ink. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JerrySharrett]

I would think that with old eyes, a group shooter would rather see his bullet holes than the lines if he had to pick between the two.

What are you going to use as an aiming point for the first shot. What are you going to ain for on the second shot to adjust if the first shot turns out to need chasing??

 

[goodgrouper]

What are you going to use as an aiming point for the first shot. What are you going to ain for on the second shot to adjust if the first shot turns out to need chasing??

If I can't see the mothball, I parallel the horizontal crosshair with the mirage board lines and then run the vertical crosshair through the center of the big black square. If I pull the trigger and can't see the bullet hole, then I try to wait for the same condition and shoot same place again. Hopefully, if the load is tuned, the two bullets will be clumped together somewhere and I can usually see that. Then I hold off for the following shots as needed or run a holding condition as fast as I can.

We run into this scenario quite often at G.J. Colorado. The range faces into the sun most of the day and the entire 200 yard field is nothing but sand. The mirage gets so bad that you can barely read what target frame you're on!

 

[JerrySharrett]

If I can't see the mothball, I parallel the horizontal crosshair with the mirage board lines and then run the vertical crosshair through the center of the big black square. If I pull the trigger and can't see the bullet hole, then I try to wait for the same condition and shoot same place again. Hopefully, if the load is tuned, the two bullets will be clumped together somewhere and I can usually see that. Then I hold off for the following shots as needed or run a holding condition as fast as I can.

We run into this scenario quite often at G.J. Colorado. The range faces into the sun most of the day and the entire 200 yard field is nothing but sand. The mirage gets so bad that you can barely read what target frame you're on!

Great ides. I've used that technique before where the range provides mirage boards on each frame.The trouble with relying on this method all the time is
1) not all clubs install mirage boards and

2) on many installations the mirage boards are not in line with each other creating a canting effect with the horizontal crosshair.

 

[goodgrouper]

Great ides. I've used that technique before where the range provides mirage boards on each frame.The trouble with relying on this method all the time is
1) not all clubs install mirage boards and

2) on many installations the mirage boards are not in line with each other creating a canting effect with the horizontal crosshair.

1. Don't know about IBS, but I have never seen any registered NBRSA match without a mirage board, and the Nationals will certainly have one!

2. Doesn't matter for 100-200 yards. Most mirage boards, target boards, target frames aren't level either. You are just looking for a reference point in which to aim at. You can go top to bottom left to right edge on a diagonal line if you have too.

 

[JerrySharrett]

1. Don't know about IBS, but I have never seen any registered NBRSA match without a mirage board, and the Nationals will certainly have one!

2. Doesn't matter for 100-200 yards. Most mirage boards, target boards, target frames aren't level either. You are just looking for a reference point in which to aim at. You can go top to bottom left to right edge on a diagonal line if you have too.

Many of our SE regional matches (2 gun) don't install mirage boards. I remember one time Jef Fowler and I used electrical tape and a floor tile to make a pair for our frame. Jef was one of the best in reading mirage. I guess him living in Midland, TX helped that. He tried to teach me how to read mirage, but I was not a good student!!

Not all the frames at this recent IBS Nats had boards on both sides of the target, I know for sure on bench #3.

As to the upcoming NBRSA Nats at Fairchance, I'll let you know/

 

[goodgrouper]

Many of our SE regional matches (2 gun) don't install mirage boards. I remember one time Jef Fowler and I used electrical tape and a floor tile to make a pair for our frame. Jef was one of the best in reading mirage. I guess him living in Midland, TX helped that. He tried to teach me how to read mirage, but I was not a good student!!

Not all the frames at this recent IBS Nats had boards on both sides of the target, I know for sure on bench #3.

As to the upcoming NBRSA Nats at Fairchance, I'll let you know/

Good luck at Fairchance. Wish I were going but that is farther than I'm willing to travel this year! Dang $4 gas.

 

[JerrySharrett]

Good luck at Fairchance. Wish I were going but that is farther than I'm willing to travel this year! Dang $4 gas.

I know. Gas was $3.73 when we got to Holton. "Welcome shooters". It had dropped to $3.55 by the time we left. Powder at $220/jug, primers $65/1000, no jackets to make bullets....

As long as WE THE PEOPLE sit on our collective a$$es and do nothing, things will just get worse...much worse. The FED, who is not part of our government, as the Constitution requires, has just put 3 TRILLION in US treasuries in the system. Wait till that chicken comes home to roost!!