"solids" target bullets

J

Juan Lago

Guest
Here's a head scratcher I keep coming back to periodically. If core stripping, bullet jactet thickness, fabrication, metplat consistency etc. are challenges to producing the most accurate bullets possible, why aren’t jacketless bullets such as Barnes makes present?

Looking at comparables such as 22 cal Barnes 70's and Sierra MK 69's show published BCs and SDs that are essentially identical.

Would seem either an alloy or mixture of copper and an anti fouling lubricant like moly could counter any additional fouling from the resulting longer projectiles, or external coating, or a lower bearing form.

Easy answer is if practical it might dominate like 6PPC, 133, 205's ricochets
 
The big "if" is the amount of twist that is needed to stabilize the solids, which by their very nature have to be considerably longer than cored bullets in order to get a usable weight. The actual precision of each piece, such as a Barnes, is also suspect. These are not known for their accuracy when speaking in terms of Benchrest Accuracy. Everybody assumes that a solid bullet would be superior to a cored bullet in all aspects. That is yet to be seen.

The advent of gain twist barrels might help, if it could start out at something like 1-12 and end at 1-8. As you said, the perfection of a suitable alloy is really the key. It has to be soft enough to engrave and seal in the lands and grooves, but not so soft as to simply strip and foul.

In the short range game, the problems with components you alluded to are always present, but the availability of great jackets, and great bullet makers, almost make them a non issue. A look at how well they shoot day in and day out is a testament to this.

The modern Benchrest match bullet is really an extremely precision piece. Some suggest that machined bullets are as accurate in construction, but I doubt it. A good bullet maker can sit down and, with the same lot # of jackets, produce 10,000 bullets that, for all purposes, are absolutely identical. As whiz bang as modern CNC machining techniques are, it would be difficult to match that level of consistent precision. ..........jackie

I am sure that in the future, the viability of using bullets without cores might become a reality, but at this moment in time, I see nothing that will come close to rivaling the bullets that are used now.........jackie
 
Years ago I conversed with a fellow from Germany who made solid bullets in South Africa run by his daughters, as I recall. The conversation eventually got to the cost. The turned bullets were about double the cost of hand made bullets. This fact ended the conversation. Considering we have combinations now that will shoot in the zeros on occasion, we probably have the Holy Grail in our hands.
 
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Pete I think you overlooked your own statement.... on occasion.... I wish we could find one that would do it consistently.
But then again you never know with those lying wind flags.....:D
 
Juan Lago said:
Here's a head scratcher I keep coming back to periodically. If core stripping, bullet jactet thickness, fabrication, metplat consistency etc. are challenges to producing the most accurate bullets possible, why aren’t jacketless bullets such as Barnes makes present?

Looking at comparables such as 22 cal Barnes 70's and Sierra MK 69's show published BCs and SDs that are essentially identical.

Would seem either an alloy or mixture of copper and an anti fouling lubricant like moly could counter any additional fouling from the resulting longer projectiles, or external coating, or a lower bearing form.

Easy answer is if practical it might dominate like 6PPC, 133, 205's ricochets
Click to expand...

Obturation! As Jackie said " It has to be soft enough to engrave and seal in the lands and grooves, but not so soft as to simply strip and foul", solids are very poor in the pliability department and will never come close to the obturation capabilities of a copper jacket/lead core combination.............Don
 
I doubt anyone has given it a serious try. On the rumor circuit are two things: (1) the bullet has to be a very good fit with the barrel, and (2) the rifling needs to be different -- thin, and deep. Lawton barrels has done some work on the rifling issue for solids, but these were for large, long-range bullets.

If correct, (2) is enough to stop much testing -- the barrel would not be good for jacketed bullets. To get a fair test, you'd have to order 10 to 20, chamber them, and test to see if they would be competitive. Just too expensive for most of us.
 
Long range guys do shoot lathe-turned solids.

And Barnes TTSX bullets are capable of extreme accuracy, better than the Nosler Ballistic Tip for instance and it ain't no slouch. I have set up several rifle recently for the new TTSX's and they shoot into little roundy holes @ 100 yds.

But solids are horrendously expensive, like 3-10 times more money than Match bullets.

al
 
So, Al, what rate of twist does one need for the Barnes Triple Shock X 6mm (85 grains)? I have this old 3-groove, 8-twist Pac-Nor barrel that shot pretty good until it's throat went. Since it is 30-inches long I an cut a fair hunk off . . .

The 3-groove has real broad lands -- a problem with the triple-S design?

They're only about twice the cost of match bullets.
 
Charles E said:
So, Al, what rate of twist does one need for the Barnes Triple Shock X 6mm (85 grains)? I have this old 3-groove, 8-twist Pac-Nor barrel that shot pretty good until it's throat went. Since it is 30-inches long I an cut a fair hunk off . . .

The 3-groove has real broad lands -- a problem with the triple-S design?

They're only about twice the cost of match bullets.
Click to expand...

I don't know, I don't know and yup Barnes are not as expensive as some of the others that are designed for accuracy as opposed to hunting.

My guess is that an 8" twist will work fine for the 80gr.

al
 
On Occasion:

Vern said:
Pete I think you overlooked your own statement.... on occasion.... I wish we could find one that would do it consistently.
But then again you never know with those lying wind flags.....:D
Click to expand...

I deliberately used that word for the Windflag reason and the Human portion. The Rifles and components will shoot Zeros "all Day Long", as folks sometimes say.
 
Pete Wass said:
Years ago I conversed with a fellow from Germany who made solid bullets in South Africa run by his daughters, as I recall. The conversation eventually got to the cost. The turned bullets were about double the cost of hand made bullets. This fact ended the conversation. Considering we have combinations now that will shoot in the zeros on occasion, we probably have the Holy Grail in our hands.
Click to expand...

they are still in business, still selling solid copper.....some use in other competition but have never seen them in br.

mike in co
 
I think the big questions are,"do these things really shoot well enough to win matches", and "do they shoot better than our conventional cup and core bullets"?
What matches are being won with them?
Ted
 
TedH said:
I think the big questions are,"do these things really shoot well enough to win matches", and "do they shoot better than our conventional cup and core bullets"?
What matches are being won with them?
Ted
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but I think they may commonly win 50 cal matches. Maybe someone with some experience with these big guns can chime in. I am interested because of the 50BR score rifle idea.:)
 
After looking at a "2 bore" I just cant help myself.
That is something else.
I wonder if anyone has ever shot one and lived?:eek:

I guess what I mean is watching the videos of people shooting the T-Rex is funny but I think this would make the T-Rex look like shooting a 22 short out of a 20 lb. gun.:rolleyes:
 
Juan Pablo
Here are some groups and scores and all of them were shot with monolithic solids at 1,000 yards.The gain twist barrels don't work well with solids.The bore to groove ratio is different than that on a barrel used for jacketed bullets but thinner deeper makes no sense at all.None of this is rumor it is fact.On a 50 bmg the bullets run $220 a 100 to $240 a 100 and when you consider they weigh 11 times as much as a 100 yard bullet you can understand why.If you want a change made to your bullets design with a jacketed bullet you spend many thousands on new dies and wait 2 years to get them.With the solids you can quickly change any aspect of the bullets shape length weight diameter and if you order 250 of the new design the price stays the same.
Lynn


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