Simple question on tension barrels,

J

Jay Idaho

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Charles, Joel, Tony, Lynn, a.JR, anybody wishing to comment,
If one wanted to try a tension barrel Heavy gun, what diameter barrel do you thing should be used? If I recall correctly, Charles Bailey used Lilja 1.250 diamter barrels. The current thread on tension barrels mentions a couple that had 1.450 barrels.
A barrelmaker recently told me that I can get a 6mm barrel, 30" long, 1.250 o.d. and it will be the full diameter all the way. In other words, the "wormhole" will not wander enough that the barrel will have to be turned below 1.25 fo cleanup. 1 1/4" thread on both ends would be convienent.

Thanks for any input,

Jay
 
Jay,Idaho

Jay mine were 1.450 straight cylinders but I never won anything with them.Tom Price the NBRSA champion a couple years back was using a Greg Tannel tubed gun and he didn't shoot it too well either.
I would wait to here from Jeff or Tony or Joel before you order up a barrel.
Lynn
 
Hi Jay , A simple matter from me as i have a 1.250 barrel tenon and want a step to butt against the action face , just putting on the 3rd barrel now , they have all been 1.450 for 6 ins ,straight tapered to 1.250 @32ins ..Same size thread on the muzzle as the tenon ,except left handed .. Tube size i have seems large enough to control the barrel ,it is approx 2.00 od with a .200 wall( it's in metric)..The 6061t6 "extruded" tube that we have over hear is the best available in it's wall consistancy and temper..I don't believe the way it shoots and tunes that the muzzle is "stopped " ,it just has a wide window to tune in .. JR..Jeff Rogers
Charles, Joel, Tony, Lynn, a.JR, anybody wishing to comment,
If one wanted to try a tension barrel Heavy gun, what diameter barrel do you thing should be used? If I recall correctly, Charles Bailey used Lilja 1.250 diamter barrels. The current thread on tension barrels mentions a couple that had 1.450 barrels.
A barrelmaker recently told me that I can get a 6mm barrel, 30" long, 1.250 o.d. and it will be the full diameter all the way. In other words, the "wormhole" will not wander enough that the barrel will have to be turned below 1.25 fo cleanup. 1 1/4" thread on both ends would be convienent.

Thanks for any input,

Jay
 
Jay, Idaho

If i can recall, Charles Bailey's tube gun looked a little like the USS Enterprise out of Startrek, where it had two pods that ran in seperate bags, and the tube was something in the vacinity of a six inch diameter bore casing. Now that's what i call muzzle control, which is what i think a working stretcher tube gun does.
Personally i think aJRs barrel profile is more than i would use, but three barrels out of three have worked very well. The fourth, a Krieger, is to be fitted shortly and is of the same profile as he has stated. In the stretcher setup, i think that less may be more in the case of the barrel, and more may be more in the case of the tube diameter. Is there any chance of Charles Bailey coming in on this as he surely must have done a bunch of testing before he settled on what we saw in the end?

As i said before, Jeff and i have perservered with a working formula for us, it is probably not what will work best somewhere down the road and we are constantly trying other things. What i can say for sure is that if we deviate slightly from what we know, it is not always a good outcome. We keep a standard type lockup nut on the muzzle while keeping the thread diameter the diameter of the barrel muzzle as best we can. A collar that bears on the action face if possible, or on a barrel shoulder as close to the action face as possible. A T6 extruded alloy tube with very concentric properties.
With regard to actual tension, we lube the mating and rotating surfaces with a grease or antiseize and tension as firmly as the wrench allows. Fire two five shot groups and nip up the nut while the barrel is warm and elongated. Usually we get about another 1/8 turn of the nut.

Failures have been many, any type of SS tubing was a no go area for us giving POI walking and general inconsistant performance. Void filling is of little benefit and could be detrimental, though i think the coolant method has merit.
I firmly believe that a tube gun has little to do with harmonics and everything to do with structural bracing. I can only support this statement by saying that the two materials have completely different expansion rates, worlds apart heat transfer rates, yet as long as there is tension, even only a few ftlbs, the grouping and POI remains as constant as the ammuniton you feed it. If there was ever a configuration for bad harmonics, alloy and stainless steel combined together with heat will have altering lengths and thus varying tension that can do nothing but alter vibration characteristics.

Jay, all i can say is keep structural strength and muzzle control in mind, forget the harmonics side for now, and if kept simple like ours, i think success is three hours worth of machining away.
To directly answer your question, depending on barrel tennon size a 1.25 " parallel or tapering barrel to say 1" at the muzzle. Action size allowing, possibly use a 1.75 or 2" OD tube and butt up to the action face. If you can only use a 1.5" tube then a more slender profile could be used. I can't argue with Jeffs barrel profile and live in hope that one day it fails.:D
Tony Z.
 
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Jay,

Joel & C.B. used 1.250 barrels. I used a 1.350, for the simple reason I used a 10-inch BAT, with a 1.250 tenon & at that time I didn't want to use a nut.

All of us used 3-inch, schedule 40 stainless pipe. C.B. had a friend who used aluminum early on, & the gun didn't shoot well, so we were all off aluminum. Of course, we've since found the problem wasn't with the aluminum (it was scope mount).

(Joel has made a new HG, using larger diameter aluminum pipe. I have aluminum pipe sitting around waiting for me to make a new one, 3.5 inch o.d. and .75-inch wall. Joel has been making most of my rifles lately, but for some reason, I want to do this one myself. I'll probably have to face reality & get his help again.)

My first rifle used a 2-inch o.d. ss tube over a 1.350 barel (same BAT).

In short, I can't think of any reason not to use 1.250 barrels, & smaller might be better. Muzzle control comes from the tube, not the barrel. I'm going o use 1.250 with the BAT now, & make a "nut" to control headspace.

You'd have to check, but I think C.B used an even skinner barrel & made the back plate dual purpose, both tension & headspace.

Finally, C.B.'s barrels were quite long, & he made the front end so he could set them back. I think Joel used 32-inch barrels; I used 30-inch barrels.

Hope this helps, but I don't think any of us has a handle on *best* yet. My thinking is stiffer pipe & more flexible barrels, which seem to work fine in L.G. We'll see how the new HG turns out if I ever get it built.

Edit: One reason for Joel & C.B.'s designs was to keep the center of mass around the bore centerline. Seemed to work. Mine wasn't quite that way. My best LG tensioned-barrel was light enough to use a Nightforce scope, & with that 2.5 pounds above the bore, it had only about 1.25 pounds more below the bore.
 
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Jay
In my research on tensioned tubes I have found two things. First there is no such thing as a simple question about tensioned tubes.
Second no matter how you build a tensioned barrel I can find someone who will say with absolute certainty that any given method will not work.
All this says to me is that the tensioned tubes are still in their infancy and still more research/testing is needed. My research has escilated in the last month since I have started on my first tensioned tube.
If memory serves me a while back Charles mentioned a silhouette barrel contour may be desirable (Charles if my memory is errant please correct me). Personally the silhouette double contour makes the most sense to me.
James
 
With regard to actual tension, we lube the mating and rotating surfaces with a grease or antiseize and tension as firmly as the wrench allows. Fire two five shot groups and nip up the nut while the barrel is warm and elongated. Usually we get about another 1/8 turn of the nut.


I firmly believe that a tube gun has little to do with harmonics and everything to do with structural bracing. I can only support this statement by saying that the two materials have completely different expansion rates, worlds apart heat transfer rates, yet as long as there is tension, even only a few ftlbs, the grouping and POI remains as constant as the ammuniton you feed it. If there was ever a configuration for bad harmonics, alloy and stainless steel combined together with heat will have altering lengths and thus varying tension that can do nothing but alter vibration characteristics.

Tony Z.
Tony. The thought occurs to me that the use of a stiff stack of Belleville washer springs might keep the tension a bit more uniform through a larger range of temperatures. Just a thought.
David E.
 
If memory serves me a while back Charles mentioned a silhouette barrel contour may be desirable (Charles if my memory is errant please correct me). Personally the silhouette double contour makes the most sense to me.
Sort of right. First of all, sample size is one (1), which isn't worth much. Secondly, I actually prefer a faster step-down & step-up than the old silhouette contour. A 90-degree step is the easier to cut, and there is really nothing wrong with a 90-degree step, but from my old audio days, I do remember that using "spikes" to support audio equipment aided vibration control from wave propagation through the floor or walls. So for that reason, I like a 45-degree angle. Probably nostalgia & no real advantage in this application.

In passing, Joel Pendergraft is the expert on Belleville washers, maybe he'll chime in. He built me a front tensioning system that used caged washers, so there could be no radial movement. He has also built several of this style for himself. I think he wound up believing there is no advantage & a lot of work, but best if he replies.

I'd say in starting out, the best thing to do is keep it simple. Discover any problems & think of a fix. Sometimes the fix introduces new problems, but they too have solutions. If you find yourself getting too elaborate, it is time to go back to the beginning.

Having said that, I'm 99% sure what caused the problem with the short-range, water-jacketed setup. The cooling would have worked, but there was a place near the breech where the water was very thin to absent, so the heat differential caused the barrel (& tube) to first droop a little bit, then recover as the heat evened out. The reason is another guy tried the same thing & it worked. It is just that he didn't use the gradual curved taper going down for 1.250 you find in a No. 5 contour. If you are going to use coolant, make sure that where ever it can get, there is a good layer. But the best idea is to ignore heat issues unless you actually find you have them in a particular setup.

See what I mean?
 
Skinny barrel ??

Why wouldn't a relatively skinny barrel, like say 0.8 straight over most of the length, work OK inside a nice fat alloy tube ?

If you are trying to tension the barrel straight wouldn't a skinny barrel achieve that easier than a fattish one ?

A piece of string 3 feet long is a lot easier to pull up tight and straight than a piece of wire rope.

I don't know a thing about tensioned barrel's, I am sure it must have been tried.
 
Tony. The thought occurs to me that the use of a stiff stack of Belleville washer springs might keep the tension a bit more uniform through a larger range of temperatures. Just a thought.
David E.

I have done exactly that, used the Belleville washers, spent numerous hours with intricate machining and different tensioning methods. I have come about full circle with light gun tensioning. Tony and Jeff's method which is quite simple seems to be working better than most I have tried. Maybe it's a case of the less number of parts the better. I have had some spotty success but consistency seems to be lacking. Now I'm experimenting with tuners because I got a bit frustrated with the light gun tensioning.

For heavy gun it's probably hard to beat the big tube/pipe water cooled approach with the barrel near center of mass. Be prepared to spend countless hours at the milling machine and lathe if this is the way you go.
 
Why wouldn't a relatively skinny barrel, like say 0.8 straight over most of the length, work OK inside a nice fat alloy tube ?

If you are trying to tension the barrel straight wouldn't a skinny barrel achieve that easier than a fattish one ?

A piece of string 3 feet long is a lot easier to pull up tight and straight than a piece of wire rope.

I don't know a thing about tensioned barrel's, I am sure it must have been tried.

Realistically you can't do much stretching using a 1 1/2 - 2" dia. aluminum tube. We are just attempting to widen the tuning window as Tony said. I don't know whether the window is wider with the lighter or the heavier barrel. For a heavy gun where weight is not an issue I would personally tend to go with a heavier barrel profile if for no other reason we fire more rounds and barrel heat is more of a factor. With a light gun weight dictates that we use lighter contours.

A few years back when I was using aluminum tube for the first time I was installing the tube and I kept torqueing the tensioning nut expecting it to get tight and I guess not being the brightest kid on the block I proceeded to place a nice banana shape bow in my tube before I realized what was happening. I had to throw that one in the scrap bin and start afresh.
 
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Charles,

I wasn't volunteering for anything, I don't have the time, money, skill or inclination to want to mess with such a thing, or the use for it down here even if I could.

I just wondered why a skinnier barrel would not respond to some tension just as well as a fatter one, assumed it must have been tried and wanted some feedback on the outcome.

If you haven't tried it how can you know ??
 
Hey Tony

Jay, all i can say is keep structural strength and muzzle control in mind, forget the harmonics side for now, and if kept simple like ours, i think success is three hours worth of machining away.

Tony if its only 3 hours of machining time from you I"d like to buy one of your set-ups.Let me know.
Lynn
 
Way ahead of you Lynn. I know both Jeff and yourself have been talking via email, so i made mention to him last night that he let you know that i can do a complete tube and fitting setup for you. You will just have to get your smith to turn the thread to match up the barrel nut. Jeff will talk to you soon.

Tony Z.
 
Tony That Is Great News

Tony my gunsmith is Jim Borden and I don't know what motorcycles he likes if any? Maybe Charles E will tell us?

Let me know were to send the money and I'll ge it to you ASAP.
Lynn
 
Swap

Hi Lynn,Will contact by email today on details, No need to send money ,we are always pushed to get products over to here .. we can swap something.. if you are going with the tube size i use ,let me know quick as the stuff i bought 3 days ago was the best wall concentricity i have ever seen and i need to get the walls tested on that batch before my Ultrasonic checker goes back down south for a while ..JR..Jeff Rogers
Tony my gunsmith is Jim Borden and I don't know what motorcycles he likes if any? Maybe Charles E will tell us?

Let me know were to send the money and I'll ge it to you ASAP.
Lynn
 
aJR

Jeff yes I'd like it the same as yours.I don't know what charles is talking about so I'll contact Jim on tuesday to see if he will have any issues.
Lynn
 
Threads

Lynn , don't fret over the thread ,i use the metric equal to 1.250 by 16 tpi but tony has no problems with any imperial sizes..i,m sure that Jim will have no problems also cuttin a thread to the nut supplied ,it's that simple..JR
Jeff yes I'd like it the same as yours.I don't know what charles is talking about so I'll contact Jim on tuesday to see if he will have any issues.
Lynn
 
the stuff i bought 3 days ago was the best wall concentricity i have ever seen and i need to get the walls tested

Jeff & Tony,
Do you know for sure that wall consistency is important? I can't see that it could matter that much but I could be totally wrong. Have you experienced varied results due to poor wall thickness consistency?

Also, When you install the tube do you have the gun/barrel in a horizontal or vertical position? I have always had them horizontal but that means the barrel is bent down via gravity so I'm wondering if it would be better to have it vertical or does it not make any difference what so ever.

Thanks,
Joel
 
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