Should I trust "thrown" charges?

J

JD Mock

New member
I guess I don't have enough to do today, so I decided to run a "Boyd Allen" type of test. (Sorry, Boyd, I just could not help myself.) I own three powder measures ("dumps"). They are two converted HenslerLyman 55's and a Harrell (120 grain model). I used N133 (09) for each of these. I threw 10 charges with each and weighed them on a Dillon Determinator electronic scale. I tried to follow my protocol at at match in that I dumped any charge that did not "feel" right back into the hopper. My results are as follows: Hensler #1- 29.9, 29.8, 30.0, 30.0, 30.1, 30.1, 30.0, 30.0, 30.0, 29.9.
HENSLER #2 -30.0, 30.0, 30.1, 30.1, 30.1, 30.0, 30.0, 30.1, 30.0, 30.0.
Harrell 29.2, 29.1, 29.0, 29.2, 29.0, 29.0, 29.0, 29.0, 29.0, 29.1

The Two Henslers were set at 9.5 on their scale, and the Harrell was at 54.0 clicks.

I plan to use the Hensler #2 at the Super Shoot and not worry about the tenth or two variation in powder weight. Am I wrong for this trust? James PS The picture shows a new shooter David Hudson getting pointers about the Harrell measure from veteran Richard Milton. Dennis Tinkham is in the background.

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I'm not saying anything about your "Should I trust..." premise. I just want to add a couple of thoughts to the discussion.

1. Your sample size of 10 is probably OK. A rule of thumb is 30. That number has some magic associated with it that I don't want to get into.

2. The published accuracy of your scale is 0.1 grain. When you're trying to quantify errors of .1 grain, you don't want to measure with .1 grain resolution.

Regards,

Greg J.
 
Good Morning James,

I had to smile at your description of your test. Anyone that throws 133 that well should get a medal. I don't think that it is that commonly done.

I have a suggestion for another test that relates. On the best of shooting days, shoot a row of target centers with loads that vary by .1 grain, starting a half grain below your tuned up load, and extending a half grain above. Obviously, to be credible, the charges should be weighed. You could scan the targets and use a free target measuring program to measure the horizontal and vertical offset from a previously placed image of a bullet hole that is off center from your aiming point. The page of target centers could be made up from a single scanned image of a center with a single bullet hole, copying and pasting that image for each of the target centers. If you are interested, I could make up the target, and do the measuring. It might be interesting to be able to put an actual number on tuning node width.

Boyd
 
Giving him his due, MikeInCo is right in that if you are trying to measure error that's likely .1-.3 grains, you can't use a scale that's accurate to 0.1 grains. The math isn't in it.

Please note what I did say and what I didn't.

A very interesting experiment would be something similar using a verified standard set of weights and using those near the charge weights that we throw. I have a friend that is a nuclear chemist PhD that has offered to let me use a set. I might take him up on it this coming winter.

Greg J.
 
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collectively , i think almost everyone said it.
the dillon is not accurate enough to base the test on.
the sample size is too small..
but
n133 seems to not care too much about exact weight...so you may be fine......

the bigger BUT

if at the super shoot you have one shot out, was it the thrower ??
if i was shooting n133, i would use a chargemaster.......( plus or minus .1 vs plus or minus .2 /.3 of thrown charges)

have fun..that is what it is about.

mike in co
 
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JD Mock said:
I plan to use the Hensler #2 at the Super Shoot and not worry about the tenth or two variation in powder weight. Am I wrong for this trust? James
Click to expand...

Now James
You should know by now that it is extremely important to weigh your charges to .00001 gr. obviously this is of paramount important. Just look at how much has been written about it on these forums ! Never mind all the records set in the past by people like Euber, Boyer , etc. those days are gone. If you cannot weigh and dispense your powder to the 1/3 of a kernel you have no chance at being successful in todays shooting environments.

Dick
 
dickie and francis,
are way too old and too senile to even attempt to learn something new.
a work of caution.....never look forward, always look behind you, its the only way to improve or get ahead.

ouch..its getting hot in here.......
i'm stepping out for a nice glass of lemonaide.....

mike in co
 
The Chargemaster is a fine piece of equipment, but using it in the "barn" at Kelbly's is a pain. There seems to always be someone sizing cases and shaking the table and one must find an outlet, etc, etc. I have tried weighing charges ahead of time and putting them in glass vials. It seems that the perfect load is always less or more than the amount in the tubes. Then, I dump the tubes into the powder measure and throw them without constant weighing. If I had a million dollar motorhome, I would definitely weigh my charges on the chargemaster. Dick referred to all of the records set by shooters "throwing" charges and they are still being set by some shooters, but I will say that progress continues to be made in getting consistent loads. Good shooting...James
 
Howdy All,
Well, I have had and do have a few dumps, and of course we all know the finer kernel or flack ect. the finer the better charge it will dump. I think we spend a lot of time on case prep.,and why stop there?
I wouldn't dump my charges and go! Now I did the other other day dump and run 10 rounds for my Grendel I just got threw putting toghter, I had waited allmost 3 weeks to pull the trigger! Now back you this topic I don't know what this is(the Super Shoot ) but I take it that it is some type of comp. shooting, and if it is and if I was going to go shoot that match, I would set my Redding Benchrest Dump or one of my Blending mull dumps, so that I threw a charge as close to the weight that I wanted and then finish with my SUPER OLD Herters beam scale! Yes it will drive you crazy to use, but why not load your ammo the best you can?
First and fore most I am not a Pro at anything, I just have been doing the best I can do when it comes to shooting and I know all my rifles will out shoot me! I been doing this a long time, and about 2 years I found out that I didn't know CRAP!! but 28 years of trying helps a little. I did not jump in here to try and show off, because that isn't my intentions, and if the Moderator fell that I have over stepped please delete!
Just my 2 cents!
Greg
 
James just take Hensler #2 and the Harrell and win the match. You might watch the flags as well. Anyway...good luck and...report back. We'll be looking for your results in Precision Shooting.

Virg
 
Virg, I thank you for the kind words, but I no longer write for PS. Also, the Super Shoot may well be my last short range BR match. I plan to "retire" from BR shooting except for local 600 yard matches. I relish all of the friends that I have made and the great shooters that I have had a chance to interview. I am the prime caretaker of my 91 year old mother; plus neck problems, and the lack of adequate finances to contend at the national level, has led me to think that the time has come for me to quit. I plan to keep my trusty BAT in case I change my mind in the future. Good shooting....James
 
JD at the Super Shoot.
You could load with those weirdos on the patio. Most are from upnorth....couple Russians thrown in.
Only 2 guys to a table. Think I saw an outlet or 2....
John and Arlene takes reservations. I was lucky 2 yrs ago, to get a spot. Hope to find one this year. :)
Tim B.
Hope the ice cream maker is there....:)
 
James,
I got an old Hoppy's at a yard sale for next to nuthin, it's been sittin in my shop for years. I got it out not too long ago and did the same thing and was very surprised with the results. I have paid alot of money over the years for the high dollar powder measures and had the best one sitting on a shelf in my shop, not saying the rest of them won't do the same thing but just because it cost more doesn't mean it's better. Good Shooting, Scotty
 
Cmon, your sharkin the man and you two won't meet at the supershoot...
But...you did give up an inch or two on the thrower by admitting that 133 isn't all that picky about exact weight!

mike in co said:
collectively , i think almost everyone said it.
the dillon is not accurate enough to base the test on.
the sample size is too small..
but
n133 seems to not care too much about exact weight...so you may be fine......

the bigger BUT

if at the super shoot you have one shot out, was it the thrower ??
if i was shooting n133, i would use a chargemaster.......( plus or minus .1 vs plus or minus .2 /.3 of thrown charges)

have fun..that is what it is about.

mike in co
Click to expand...
 
all one has to do is to go to a major match.
cactus saw a full 50% of the top shooting n133....some must still be throwing charges.
and they finish in the top....so inspite of what we KNOW...(thrown charges are not consistant with n133), people with skill still shoot well that way.
my limitied experience says the powder is 'FORGIVING" ,it has a large window of semi sweet spot.
i do say, just how good could they have shot if the powder was a consistant charge ?
as long as they insist on throwing , we will never know.
mike in co
MarkR said:
Cmon, your sharkin the man and you two won't meet at the supershoot...
But...you did give up an inch or two on the thrower by admitting that 133 isn't all that picky about exact weight!
Click to expand...
 
JD,

Sorry to hear about your competitive "retirement" and about PS mag. Now who will keep the precision in Precision Shooting Mag?

I also understand why you would ask this question. You like the idea of knowing exactly what amount of powder is in your case, but are also aware of what a PITA those Chargemasters are at a match. They're barely on the edge of practicality for a match environment. They hate wind, they hate dirt, they hate wobbly benches, they hate vibrations, and they are sllllllllllowwwwwwwwww!
Since this will likely be your last rodeo, why not just enjoy it? Forget about the hassle of the Chargemaster and just enjoy your #2 or Harrells. Use the time you save to visit with folks who you might not see again for awhile.
From what I see, your throwers are plenty accurate enough to use and never think twice about. If you've got a barrel/load combo that is sensitive enough to tell a .2 grain variation, you shouldn't be using that barrel at the Super SHoot in the first place!

Fwiw, I've taken my worst barrel and shot it over a chronograph with loads I weighed out in .1 grain increments to specifically test the velocity spreads and poi changes. No difference was detected on target with rounds that were .1 above or .1 below the mean. In other words, they went in the same hole. The chronograph couldn't detect an increase in velocity outside the loads normal standard deviations (which were in the single digits or teens). So, if there are shooters out there who worry about .2 grain or .3 grain variation, they are better instruments than my chrono and better shooters than anyone can humanly be. Perhaps if our guns were in the neighborhood of 99% efficient machines, we would see imperfections in the loads easier. But since guns are actually terribly inefficient, they afford us a little wiggle room. Just my 2 pesos as always..............
 
I might need to apoligies for my post! After several more post's I think I have picked up that you will be loading at the match?? I thought the only guys that did that were the B.P. guys! I would be great full if some one will point me in the right direction?
Greg
 
Greg, if you go to the Super Shoot, you will likely see 298 out of 300 loading at the range. If one is worried about being off a tenth of a grain, he shouldn't be trying to "balance razor blades" as Mike Ratigan puts it. If your load is that sensitive, you will not have much success in the Ohio wind. If weighing charges lets you have more confidence...then go for it. The reason for most to load at the range is that the match is held over 4 days and often a wide variety of conditions. One may see sleet, hail, snow, frost or 85 degree days. Rain is usually a sure bet and wind is even more likely. No matter how bad the conditions, a few will always shoot small. They are not necessarily the winners however. The shooters who avoid the train wrecks usually come out on top. Good shooting and see you at Kelbly's. James
 
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