Scorring:

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I went to a rimfire match once upon a time and was chosen as a referee. There was a pretty good shot in attendance but he clearly thought the scorer and referees were against him ("morons" I think he said). Turns out he was right (not about the referees being morons - just me)! I went home and looked through the rules and found nothing that addressed a smartass...but I did find some stuff on scoring and it wasn't done in the best interest of the competitor. The competitor was later banned from all matches in the area...should have done that earlier instead of scoring his targets incorrectly.

There was a fellow at a centerfire match that protested a lot of targets. He protested a target that was quite a bit off and rather than the referees correcting the mistake, they scored the group larger....because they said the fellow protested too many targets.

Both occurrences were within the rules. Said differently, no rule was broken. On one hand I understand, on the other hand I don't understand at all.

As for the best method of scoring...there's not one.
 
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score. As it went, I was asked to protest scores at least three times and the official scorer didn't appreciate being questioned. Turned our he was clearly wrong in every instance. I don't think he ever asked for any referees to check his scores. I can say that at UBR matches we use a scorer and two referees. I frequently do the scoring and I do ask for a second and third opinion now and then. Also, I have been proven wrong more than once. I understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but I seriously doubt that three scorers will make the same mistake. As has been said, when using the plug, every time you put it in again, the hole is subject to get pushed around and I much prefer the reticle. But either way, I don't think I've ever run across intentional errors and unfair scoring, just differences of opinion and when that's the case two out of three usually get it right. A few months back I was the "victim" in one of these cases. I was really upset and thought I had been screwed......until I got home with the targets and looked closer. There were two in question and the scorer and referees were right and I was wrong.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score. As it went, I was asked to protest scores at least three times and the official scorer didn't appreciate being questioned. Turned our he was clearly wrong in every instance. I don't think he ever asked for any referees to check his scores. I can say that at UBR matches we use a scorer and two referees. I frequently do the scoring and I do ask for a second and third opinion now and then. Also, I have been proven wrong more than once. I understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but I seriously doubt that three scorers will make the same mistake. As has been said, when using the plug, every time you put it in again, the hole is subject to get pushed around and I much prefer the reticle. But either way, I don't think I've ever run across intentional errors and unfair scoring, just differences of opinion and when that's the case two out of three usually get it right. A few months back I was the "victim" in one of these cases. I was really upset and thought I had been screwed......until I got home with the targets and looked closer. There were two in question and the scorer and referees were right and I was wrong.

Rick
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I'm sure you didn't and don't believe that I or the other refs would intentionally screw you or anyone else, Rick...at least I hope not. Difference of opinion, being correct or incorrect..and being wronged aren't the same thing. I've never shot where I felt like any scorer would intentionally beat anyone out of anything...and won't but once, if I ever do. That's what the refs are for...to give a 2 out of three judgement on any shot that is close enough to where opinion or judgement may be in question..but hopefully not integrity.
Yes, there are times when it comes down to the judgement of the scorer and refs, but its that way with plugs and with reticles. Neither are perfect 100% of the time. As I said before, electronic scoring, without protests, would be my ideal choice for a scoring method, but it's not always feasible...although, it is done in some rimfire matches, but with protests allowed. Personally, I feel like the protests should be eliminated where electronic scoring is done. Right or wrong, the computer is completely unbiased. Disagreeing with what it says would be like arguing with a fence post and IMHO, invalidates the non-subjectivity of electronic scoring if a plug, particularly, is allowed into the hole after the scanned target is scored electronically. That's JMO and I'm sure that some will disagree with that. I know that protests have been won when electronic scoring has been used. My point is that with it, I think we should accept it for better or worse, and that allowing the human element into computerized scoring only allows for another variable in scoring.
 
Greyfox said:
I don't recall all the scoring rules for IBS and NBRSA, but several years ago I attended an IBS state match and was asked to be a referee. It was the only match I have attended where you were required to put up $$ to protest a score.
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Apparently that is the only club you visited that was following the rules. I personally do not like this rule, but it is the rule nevertheless.

Below is an excerpt from the Tournament Procedures section of the IBS rulebook

"J) Protests and Appeals
1) A fee of $10.00 shall be in place for any target to be rescored or remeasured. If the target changes score the fee shall be returned to the shooter-otherwise the fee shall be forfeited to the Club holding the match. In group shooting, the group size shall have to change .020 inch or more (smaller or larger) to be considered a change."

Dick
 
mwezell said:
I'm sure you didn't and don't believe that I or the other refs would intentionally screw you or anyone else, Rick...at least I hope not. Difference of opinion, being correct or incorrect..and being wronged aren't the same thing. I've never shot where I felt like any scorer would intentionally beat anyone out of anything...and won't but once, if I ever do. That's what the refs are for...to give a 2 out of three judgement on any shot that is close enough to where opinion or judgement may be in question..but hopefully not integrity.
Yes, there are times when it comes down to the judgement of the scorer and refs, but its that way with plugs and with reticles. Neither are perfect 100% of the time. As I said before, electronic scoring, without protests, would be my ideal choice for a scoring method, but it's not always feasible...although, it is done in some rimfire matches, but with protests allowed. Personally, I feel like the protests should be eliminated where electronic scoring is done. Right or wrong, the computer is completely unbiased. Disagreeing with what it says would be like arguing with a fence post and IMHO, invalidates the non-subjectivity of electronic scoring if a plug, particularly, is allowed into the hole after the scanned target is scored electronically. That's JMO and I'm sure that some will disagree with that. I know that protests have been won when electronic scoring has been used. My point is that with it, I think we should accept it for better or worse, and that allowing the human element into computerized scoring only allows for another variable in scoring.
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Mike,
If I gave the impression that I thought I was intentionally mis-scored, that was a mistake. I have never felt that my targets were mistakenly scored intentionally by anyone, even you :). My point is/was almost everybody is biased when looking at their own targets and conversely most of the scorers couldn't care less who belongs to which target. Mistakes are made and we should attempt to be as accurate as possible. Using referees goes a long way IMO. I've said I believe the reticle to be the best available scoring device, but I have not seen electronic scoring. If it is better I am all for it.

Rick
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Apparently that is the only club you visited that was following the rules. I personally do not like this rule, but it is the rule nevertheless.

Below is an excerpt from the Tournament Procedures section of the IBS rulebook

"J) Protests and Appeals
1) A fee of $10.00 shall be in place for any target to be rescored or remeasured. If the target changes score the fee shall be returned to the shooter-otherwise the fee shall be forfeited to the Club holding the match. In group shooting, the group size shall have to change .020 inch or more (smaller or larger) to be considered a change."

Dick
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Which is yet another reason why I am no longer a member of IBS. Apparently, many, if not most clubs see this as a bad rule and don't impose it.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
Mike,
If I gave the impression that I thought I was intentionally mis-scored, that was a mistake. I have never felt that my targets were mistakenly scored intentionally by anyone, even you :). My point is/was almost everybody is biased when looking at their own targets and conversely most of the scorers couldn't care less who belongs to which target. Mistakes are made and we should attempt to be as accurate as possible. Using referees goes a long way IMO. I've said I believe the reticle to be the best available scoring device, but I have not seen electronic scoring. If it is better I am all for it.

Rick
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That's good! I never thought you did.
I do like the idea of electronic scoring, but it would require electricity and scanners large enough to handle the largest target to be scored. That would be a significant financial burden on some clubs, and electricity..is what it is.

That said, if I were to seriously advocate for a scoring change, it'd be for some sort of light box to score in or on. With LED bulbs, a 12 volt power supply could be used where electricity isn't an option..and they should be inexpensive to build. Obviously, the purpose would be consistent lighting. I'm not really advocating for any change, though. While plugs and reticles aren't perfect..they aren't broken, and a light box won't make them perfect either.

I'd just be happy to have time to shoot more!
 
CMaier said:
the problem with making good products...less shooting time
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Thank you very much! I take that as a huge compliment. Truth is, I quit gunsmithing full time and started selling real estate. I am still making tuners, flags and my few little shooting accessories in my "free time". Problem is, I can't even remember what free time is.:confused:
..back to building flags.--Mike
 
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.
 
Free protests trouble

charlieh said:
i'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting i was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.
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aman +2
 
CharlieH said:
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.
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I can certainly see your point. But at the same time, I don't see having a rule that impacts everybody when you're trying to deal with a couple of a..holes that are acting like children. I think that had this happened at a match I was running I probably would have just asked the two to just leave. Fortunately, this has never come up. A few years back there was a discussion here about backers and crossfires. I said that in all the matches I had attended we never had a crossfire that wasn't admitted to by the offending party. I was told that in some areas it happens all the time and backers are needed to identify the shooter. I suppose that the folks in this area are just different in that respect.

Rick
 
CharlieH said:
I'll give you an example of where the rule that charges a fee to protest a target would have been most appreciated.

I was a referee. One shooter protested a fellow competitors target, which prompted a reprisal protest, which begin a protest war between the two. I was trying to shoot, but it became so distracting I was done for the weekend, but it also impacted the whole tempo of the match effecting all the shooters. $10 a target would have stopped that in it's tracks.
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Group or score, and is the match director now following the protest rule for the respective sanctioning body?

I can see that type of thing happening much more so in group than score. First off, most shots in score are evident to its value. Other than an obvious mistake, I don't recall ever seeing a competitor's score target being protested by another competitor. In the event of an obvious scoring error, there is no point in a fee, as it clearly is won or lost. In cases where the shot is close, if it's marked R for having been reticled, and RR for reticled and reviewed by the refs, I'm satisfied that it's correctly scored and that I'm very unlikely to change the mind of the scorer and referees to see it my way.
Group, OTOH... virtually every group could be protested, and won..if the standard were for the scorer and refs to come to the same measurement, within .001" or so, each time it's measured....hence the .020" rule. Scoring would go on forever. In this regard, Pete's point is made about the imprecise method of scoring that is used, as is mine, for electronic scoring and no protests. JMHO.--Mike
 
It can happen, I know, it happened to me. I was scoring the NBRSA Score Nationals at Holton and at the end of the match the competitors, in mass, got a whole group of referees and there was 6 cases of scoring protested. Well I was pretty confident, but there was 1 target changed, and it was obvious, I had missed it, no excuse, no reason, I had just missed it. So it can happen and that is why you have referees to follow up on this stuff.
 
IBS Matches

You do not need to be a member of IBS to shoot in IBS Matches. Just go to the match fill out the form. Do not check or check the box that your a IBS member. They do not check to see if you are a member or not. Go shoot have good time. Watch IBS web site your scores will be posted and you will be list in Shooter of the Year status list. I have done it even was refe once when I was not a IBS member. If you want serious shooting, IBS is not the league.

Daryl
 
Daryl said:
You do not need to be a member of IBS to shoot in IBS Matches. Just go to the match fill out the form. Do not check or check the box that your a IBS member. They do not check to see if you are a member or not. Go shoot have good time. Watch IBS web site your scores will be posted and you will be list in Shooter of the Year status list. I have done it even was refe once when I was not a IBS member. If you want serious shooting, IBS is not the league.

Daryl
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I believe you or your other brother Daryl, or whoever registered you better brush up on the rule book............and have a look-see at the record book of both organizations, particularly Score and Long Range before you expound on things you know little about.
 
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