Remington 788 Lugs and reloading

S

Stevep51d

New member
Hello,
I have a 788 in 22-250 caliber that is in like new condition. I do reload for it and have had one issue that bothers me... After firing I notice that the bolt is sometimes sticky to open..This is from what I believe to be bolt compression with the rear 9 locking lugs most likely not making full contact.My question is if I were to lap the lugs to get total contact would this alleviate the stretching of the brass as much..I am not sure at this point how many are contacting but will look into it.Anyone with any 788 experience would be welcomed. I have been using Winchester brass but have 300 lapua that I am not willing to sacrifice until I get this issue resolved or I get a front lug rifle..Thank you
 
Youll change the headspace likely before you get em lapped in. You may want to try a different sizing die or load
 
788 remington

Yes that is likely..I guess what I am wondering is that when the gun is fired the brass stretches too much and I am afraid of a case head separation so is it the bolt compresses or is it the lack of total contact with the lugs that is allowing the flex..I can adjust for a little headspace issue
 
I just recently shot my 788 in .308 as a departure from formal BR shooting. Mine clearly does not bear on all 9 locking lugs, but shoots reasonably well for what it is. I full length size the cases HARD, and do not shoot max loads. Extraction of the cases is pretty normal. I agree with the above post, you will surely mess up the headspace trying to lap for full contact of all 9 lugs. If you were to rebarrel the action lapping would be OK. Back your loads down some, and FL size the cases so the bolt closes nice and easy on and empty case. I would think max varmint loads for a 22-250 in a 788 action would not be a great combination.

FWIW

Steve Kostanich
 
788 remington

I bought this gun for sentimental reasons at the Tulsa gun show last year...I think I will just use it for a coyote gun and find a good 700 varmint special to reload for....Did not know about the stretching problem prior to reloading for it...Thanks everyone!
 
Stevep51d said:
I bought this gun for sentimental reasons at the Tulsa gun show last year...I think I will just use it for a coyote gun and find a good 700 varmint special to reload for....Did not know about the stretching problem prior to reloading for it...Thanks everyone!
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Glad to hear you are doing the rite thing...... I`ve owned a few..... still got a 250........Leave the gun alone..... don`t overload the action......the 788 was the poor mans rifle...... however... many would out shoot a 40x.......
bill
 
Another thought is if you had all the lugs touching you have that much more resistance to opening the bolt so it may be a wash. You may be able to have a gunsmith properly polish the chamber so the cases arent so sticky and maybe thatll help a bit.
 
788 remington

All good ideas but as little as I really do hunt all the ideas would cost money and I think I will just see what a new 40x Kevlar will cost and put the money into gun and optics.....I am a paper puncher way far more than a hunter these days..Besides if I go Deer hunting I might actually get one and I cant drag it out of the woods. A bear I shot taught me a lesson I will never forget, He was shot on the top of a mountain and jumped off a waterfall and landed in the bottom of it. I spent the whole day in waste deep water skinning him out..Never again..Paper for me or something that will fit in a game pouch.....Thanks guys for directing me in the right way. Steve Norris
 
788 22-250

I have two 22-250's one a Douglas barreled mauser 98 and the other a 788. They were both very accurate. Never got more then 5 firings From the cases before a neck would split or the pockets would loosen up. 788 loads had to be 1/2 grain under that of the mauser or I would get hard bolt lift. Used Wilson hand dies and neck sized only. The 22-250 case is like a wedge improving it is said to increase case life. Never has the case problems with my other 788's but never shot them as much ether.
 
It won't take much lapping to achieve full contact; probably not more than a thou or so. When lapping, using a properly sized O-ring at the front of the bolt will provide rearward pressure while centering the bolt nose and preventing lateral deflection. The truth is, the compression of the bolt has nothing to do with lug contact and everything to do with lug location. With hot loads, case life will be compromised. One 788 I built in 6 PPC shot fine but cases were tight after two firings and this at lower pressures than I loaded in other PPC's I had at the time. Regards, Bill
 
788 remington

Well my curious mind needs to know this, Does the bolt actually compress during the firing or is it flex of the lugs on the receiver or with the receiver?
 
Stevep51d said:
Well my curious mind needs to know this, Does the bolt actually compress during the firing or is it flex of the lugs on the receiver or with the receiver?
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On the 788, it is mostly compression of the bolt but there is also some stretch of the receiver. In total, it amounts to about .001" per thousand pounds of back thrust. In comparison, the deflection of the Model 700 is less than .0002". There is no reason to think the lugs would deflect any more than those of the 700.
All rear locking actions show this compression of the bolt and, in some cases, there may be considerable receiver stretch as well. The Steyr Mannlicher, the Colt-Sauer, the Schultz and Larsen, and, of course, the Lee Enfield, are all example of rifles which will show considerable deflection with hot loads. Because the bolt is so massive, the Shcultz and Larsen shows less than the 788; given the same bolt thrust, but it still greater than a front locker. Regards, Bill
 
"On the 788, it is mostly compression of the bolt but there is also some stretch of the receiver. In total, it amounts to about .001" per thousand pounds of back thrust."

Bill,

50,000 psi would give .050" stretch! Did you slip a decimal place or two?

Regards,

Ron
 
I have had several 788s over the years, and personally, I think that all of the talk about bolt stretch is a bunch of hooey, in terms of it being a functional problem. I shot mine hot, except for the 30-30 which I used for cast bullets. One fellow mentioned being able to shoot hotter loads in his Mauser, and that his primer pockets expanded after a few firings. Different barrels and chambers can produce quite different pressures, and I cannot see how primer pocket expansion could be caused by bolt compression, or for that matter neck splitting. The most common cause of case failure near the head is improperly setting FL dies to bump case shoulders excessively. I never had any case problems with mine. The only complaint that I had was the lack of availability of a decent trigger. As far as lug contact goes, I think that the difference between front lugs and rear would minimize the effect of any slight contact issue. I think we would do well to keep in mind the mechanics associated with problems caused by uneven lug contact in a front lug action, and walk ourselves through how this might be significantly different with rear lugs. 788 receivers are stiffer than 700s and they have a faster lock time, and for those that are interested in such things they have small firing pin tips.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I have had several 788s over the years, and personally, I think that all of the talk about bolt stretch is a bunch of hooey, in terms of it being a functional problem. I shot mine hot, except for the 30-30 which I used for cast bullets. One fellow mentioned being able to shoot hotter loads in his Mauser, and that his primer pockets expanded after a few firings. Different barrels and chambers can produce quite different pressures, and I cannot see how primer pocket expansion could be caused by bolt compression, or for that matter neck splitting. The most common cause of case failure near the head is improperly setting FL dies to bump case shoulders excessively. I never had any case problems with mine. The only complaint that I had was the lack of availability of a decent trigger. As far as lug contact goes, I think that the difference between front lugs and rear would minimize the effect of any slight contact issue. I think we would do well to keep in mind the mechanics associated with problems caused by uneven lug contact in a front lug action, and walk ourselves through how this might be significantly different with rear lugs. 788 receivers are stiffer than 700s and they have a faster lock time, and for those that are interested in such things they have small firing pin tips.
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I have to agree with Mr. Allen. Thru the years I have had two 788's in my shop both in .244. One of them the fellow had beaten the bolt handle off with a hammer in order to get the bolt open the other one was a similar situation. The ejectors were compressed to where I had to spot drill and mill them out and also had to replace the extractors. Head space was still ok in both guns. Both fellows were hand loaders!
 
I have all but two calibers in 788. they all shoot, 22-250 the best. Bought the 22-250 when Dad had to buy for me. I put a Timken trigger in some and they help reduce pull. I still think out of the box the 788 22-250 is the most accurate production rifle ever made in center fire.
 
RJM said:
"On the 788, it is mostly compression of the bolt but there is also some stretch of the receiver. In total, it amounts to about .001" per thousand pounds of back thrust."

Bill,

50,000 psi would give .050" stretch! Did you slip a decimal place or two?

Regards,

Ron
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Ron,
No shoulder fired rifle cartridge will produce fifty thousand pounds of back thrust. A cartridge which produces 50,000 psi and is of .308 size will produce around 6,000 pounds of back thrust. Even at that, the figure seems a bit excessive to me but this is what Stuart Otteson claimed in his book and he said this is what Remington claimed. My experience with one in 6PPC showed that it definitely had some stretch but I did not measure it. All I know is cases got tight much sooner than they did in my 40X or Wichita. A 222 didn't stretch enough to notice. I don't have a 788 now or I would do some testing to see what I could measure. Regards, Bill
 
Bill Leeper said:
Ron,
No shoulder fired rifle cartridge will produce fifty thousand pounds of back thrust. A cartridge which produces 50,000 psi and is of .308 size will produce around 6,000 pounds of back thrust.
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You beat me to the punch, Bill. Thanks!
F1 ?
 
788

Boyd Allen said:
I have had several 788s over the years, and personally, I think that all of the talk about bolt stretch is a bunch of hooey, in terms of it being a functional problem. I shot mine hot, except for the 30-30 which I used for cast bullets. One fellow mentioned being able to shoot hotter loads in his Mauser, and that his primer pockets expanded after a few firings. Different barrels and chambers can produce quite different pressures, and I cannot see how primer pocket expansion could be caused by bolt compression, or for that matter neck splitting. The most common cause of case failure near the head is improperly setting FL dies to bump case shoulders excessively. I never had any case problems with mine. The only complaint that I had was the lack of availability of a decent trigger. As far as lug contact goes, I think that the difference between front lugs and rear would minimize the effect of any slight contact issue. I think we would do well to keep in mind the mechanics associated with problems caused by uneven lug contact in a front lug action, and walk ourselves through how this might be significantly different with rear lugs. 788 receivers are stiffer than 700s and they have a faster lock time, and for those that are interested in such things they have small firing pin tips.
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Boyd: I was splitting necks in both chambers at 5 or 6 firings. Probably loaded to hot, I was much younger then. Same with primer pockets.
 
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