Remington 700 Extraction Issues

antelopedundee

internet bum
Since the previous thread about this issue isn't appearing I'll ask the gunsmiths a general question.

Does truing an action have any appreciable effect on the position [fore or aft] of the bolt handle which could affect primary extraction?
 
Since the previous thread about this issue isn't appearing I'll ask the gunsmiths a general question.

Does truing an action have any appreciable effect on the position [fore or aft] of the bolt handle which could affect primary extraction?

I would hope like hell that a smith wouldn't remove that much from the lug abbutments to cause a problem. Remember that most if not all 700s had a primary extraction from a misplaced bolt handle.
Just got one back from Dan Armstrong and it is great.
 
It was mentioned to me by someone at a LGS that truing could make the problem worse. Just wondering what the experiences of those who true actions are.

Just got one back today myself. I was told by RG that it didn't have any primary extraction. Actually it was fine until I got to some stout loads and the cases wouldn't extract and I had to tap them out with a cleaning rod. I won't be using that particular load in the field, but if ever necessary I'd hate to have the need for a follow up shot bogged down by poor extraction.
 
It was mentioned to me by someone at a LGS that truing could make the problem worse. Just wondering what the experiences of those who true actions are.

Just got one back today myself. I was told by RG that it didn't have any primary extraction. Actually it was fine until I got to some stout loads and the cases wouldn't extract and I had to tap them out with a cleaning rod. I won't be using that particular load in the field, but if ever necessary I'd hate to have the need for a follow up shot bogged down by poor extraction.


I would send it to Dan, It ain't gonna get better.
 
I would hope like hell that a smith wouldn't remove that much from the lug abbutments to cause a problem. Remember that most if not all 700s had a primary extraction from a misplaced bolt handle.
Just got one back from Dan Armstrong and it is great.

I wonder if it's really that simple or some make it out to be harder to fix than it really is. I had one person tell me that they quit offering the service because it took more time than it was worth in order to do it right. Is it common to have timing issues after repositioning the handle?
I had over 200 rounds through mine with just a couple of instances where the case failed to extract. When a smith works on one I expect that they probably run a standard case through it when they're done and if it extracts they call it good.

Anyway I went out this morning and shot a few rounds from a batch that had given me trouble a year ago. Everything worked slicker than snot on a doorknob so right now I'll consider the problem fixed.
 
I wonder if it's really that simple or some make it out to be harder to fix than it really is. I had one person tell me that they quit offering the service because it took more time than it was worth in order to do it right. Is it common to have timing issues after repositioning the handle?
I had over 200 rounds through mine with just a couple of instances where the case failed to extract. When a smith works on one I expect that they probably run a standard case through it when they're done and if it extracts they call it good.

Anyway I went out this morning and shot a few rounds from a batch that had given me trouble a year ago. Everything worked slicker than snot on a doorknob so right now I'll consider the problem fixed.

Great! I'm glad that you are happy.
 
Move the handle forward, rotate CCW as need, adjust the end of the tang to align the anti bind rail. It's simple when you've 1000's of them. I have a fixture to do all that. I still send them to Dan.
 
I'm with Butch! :)

Differn't strokes an' all that....... as a businessman I can't count the nights I've lain awake because "we've got a problem, we've got to talk" and I go over the job second by second all night only to meet at the site and find out that MY idea of a problem and THE CLIENT'S idea of a problem are miles apart!

I've got a Cooper with exactly ZERO primary extraction yet you'd never know it had a problem if you shoot factory ammo. I was gonna' pay large to fix it but realized, IT'S A COOPER FER CRYIN' OUT LOUD!!! When my kids sell it it'll be bought by some dude who'll puke a few cases of Varmint Gernades through it on the dogpatch and never even know it has a problem.

Ain't but a fraction of a percentile of people on the planet that run tightly sized cases, hot

I'm one...

I NEED my primary extraction cam to engage ;)

Most don't
 
Any Remington 2 lug bolt is TIMED into Battery & NOT for Primary Extraction.

So, depending on handle vintage any Remington is .080" to .160" OUT of Primary Extraction TIMING.

Moving/repositioning the handle forward/closer to the rear receiver ring, is only ONE part of the FIVE part equation.

Removing material from the receiver lug abutments &/or aft surface of the bolt lugs during the truing/blueprint process will only make the issue worse.

10,000+ re-timed to date.

No my first Rodeo!!
 
Move the handle forward, rotate CCW as need, adjust the end of the tang to align the anti bind rail. It's simple when you've 1000's of them. I have a fixture to do all that. I still send them to Dan.

LOL.... and I'm perty dern good at brazing and silver soldering but can I write my name on my thumbnail with a TIG???


nope



Dan can
 
How many smiths who build rifles based on Remington 700 actions actually fix [if they can] or send out bolt handle position and other related items [the 5 steps] as a part of the truing process? Is it always necessary? Also should it be done first thing or last thing?
 
How many smiths who build rifles based on Remington 700 actions actually fix [if they can] or send out bolt handle position and other related items [the 5 steps] as a part of the truing process? Is it always necessary? Also should it be done first thing or last thing?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And should they dance clackwise or widdershins?

"The number or percentage of people who do a thing" has no bearing on the rightness of the thing.
 
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And should they dance clackwise or widdershins?

"The number or percentage of people who do a thing" has no bearing on the rightness of the thing.

That was damn informative. So what are the telltale signs that say Houston, we have a problem?
 
How many smiths who build rifles based on Remington 700 actions actually fix [if they can] or send out bolt handle position and other related items [the 5 steps] as a part of the truing process? Is it always necessary?

Understand that anything that moves the cam angles away from each other reduces the amount of mechanical extraction.

-Truing up the internal lug abuttments moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.
-Facing off the back of the bolt lugs moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.

Even if you're only talking about a total of .005-.006 total material removed in both operations, the amount of mechanical camming for extraction has been reduced. Since the interfaces of the receiver cam surface and the bolt cam surface are angled, now the mechanical camming 'work' happens across a shorter amount of surface, over a shorter amount of bolt rotation and the bolt has to rotate further 'up' before the camming starts. If the bolt fit is loose in the raceway, this also adds to the issue as the back of the bolt moves upward when opening and the cam angle(s) interface can become further reduced. Spreading out the 'work load' always pays dividends.

Whether it's "..always necessary", obviously it depends on how much camming the receiver and bolt have before any machining is done. At a minimum, they need to be checked and corrected if needed.

The late Stan Ware (SGR Custom Rifles) was repositioning bolt handles as part of his 700 work as far back as the late '80's. I have quite a few 700 receivers that Stan massaged...most with enlarged raceways and his one piece bolt sleeve. The 700 receiver for my 250 Ackley didn't require Stan to do any handle repositioning, which was unusual.

On earlier 700 receivers that had been 'trued up', you can get a basic idea of the camming it had by looking at the gap between the front of the handle and the handle notch in the receiver.

The later unmodified 700 receivers (in the CNC era) with the notorious 'no cam' issues can't be evaluated this way as the bolt tube itself is different from the earlier bolts. Dan Armstrong has commented on this several times and explained the differences.

Here's an example of spreading out the load and taking full advantage of the cam angles. The original bolt handle (bottom) on this custom action had only the forward edge as the contact surface to the cam angle on the receiver. You can see in the picture that it had already started to wear the lower edge...which gives a hint. As well, the edge-only contact area on the bolt handle acts to pivot the the handle on the bolt tube, despite it being silver soldered and bolted on. This culminated in the infamous 'Red Hammer Incident' that's still being talked about in our region. :eek: Parts, pieces and parts of pieces went everywhere...some are still in the soil forward of the firing line at the Holmen Rod and Gun Club in Holmen, Wisconsin. :D

aQBaXFRh.jpg


Stan fitted a new handle (top) and profiled it to match the receiver cam angle:

fwXwV3Wh.jpg


Ly1NcH9h.jpg


Here's how it cams after being corrected. This action had multiple other issues that Stan also corrected. ;)

8QJ1hFrh.jpg


fR0flc3h.jpg


My 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. Coffee at Wall Drug (Wall, South Dakota) is only 5 cents so my 2 cents just gets you 40%....

Good shootin' -Al
 
Understand that anything that moves the cam angles away from each other reduces the amount of mechanical extraction.

-Truing up the internal lug abuttments moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.
-Facing off the back of the bolt lugs moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.

Even if you're only talking about a total of .005-.006 total material removed in both operations, the amount of mechanical camming for extraction has been reduced. Since the interfaces of the receiver cam surface and the bolt cam surface are angled, now the mechanical camming 'work' happens across a shorter amount of surface, over a shorter amount of bolt rotation and the bolt has to rotate further 'up' before the camming starts. If the bolt fit is loose in the raceway, this also adds to the issue as the back of the bolt moves upward when opening and the cam angle(s) interface can become further reduced. Spreading out the 'work load' always pays dividends.

Whether it's "..always necessary", obviously it depends on how much camming the receiver and bolt have before any machining is done. At a minimum, they need to be checked and corrected if needed.

The late Stan Ware (SGR Custom Rifles) was repositioning bolt handles as part of his 700 work as far back as the late '80's. I have quite a few 700 receivers that Stan massaged...most with enlarged raceways and his one piece bolt sleeve. The 700 receiver for my 250 Ackley didn't require Stan to do any handle repositioning, which was unusual.

On earlier 700 receivers that had been 'trued up', you can get a basic idea of the camming it had by looking at the gap between the front of the handle and the handle notch in the receiver.

The later unmodified 700 receivers (in the CNC era) with the notorious 'no cam' issues can't be evaluated this way as the bolt tube itself is different from the earlier bolts. Dan Armstrong has commented on this several times and explained the differences.

Here's an example of spreading out the load and taking full advantage of the cam angles. The original bolt handle (bottom) on this custom action had only the forward edge as the contact surface to the cam angle on the receiver. You can see in the picture that it had already started to wear the lower edge...which gives a hint. As well, the edge-only contact area on the bolt handle acts to pivot the the handle on the bolt tube, despite it being silver soldered and bolted on. This culminated in the infamous 'Red Hammer Incident' that's still being talked about in our region. :eek: Parts, pieces and parts of pieces went everywhere...some are still in the soil forward of the firing line at the Holmen Rod and Gun Club in Holmen, Wisconsin. :D

aQBaXFRh.jpg


Stan fitted a new handle (top) and profiled it to match the receiver cam angle:

fwXwV3Wh.jpg


Ly1NcH9h.jpg


Here's how it cams after being corrected. This action had multiple other issues that Stan also corrected. ;)

8QJ1hFrh.jpg


fR0flc3h.jpg


My 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. Coffee at Wall Drug (Wall, South Dakota) is only 5 cents so my 2 cents just gets you 40%....

Good shootin' -Al

AAAAaaaaamen to that!:p I gotta say, that "Red Hammer" pic is GREAT!;) Time for some BLACK JUICE . . . RG
 
Thanks for the explanation Al. Very informative. The Holmen facility is nearby to my home town of Winona, MN.

Couple pics of my before and after. The first one was mostly to make sure that I got the scope back in the same place after the work was returned. It was over a year ago when I had the issue, but medical issues intervened so things were delayed into this year. The same loads that gave me trouble last year worked fine after the fix with not even a flattened looking primer.

cD0Cya2.jpg


w93CYWx.jpg


Should the extracted case kind of stay in line with the bolt body until it clears into the port area or is it normal for the ejector to start to throw it before that?
 
Should the extracted case kind of stay in line with the bolt body until it clears into the port area or is it normal for the ejector to start to throw it before that?

The Remington ejectors will start levering the front of the case sideways as soon as the bolt begins moving rearward. It's common to reduce the spring tension by clipping coils from the stock spring until the case ejects the way you want it to for the intended purpose. Many either remove the ejector completely or substitute a very weak spring that doesn't let the ejector protrude from the face of the bolt. -Al
 
OP,
There is NOTHING correct on any LH Remington.
(1/2"-13tpi RH firing pin shroud thread is bass-backwards for proper functionality)

The handle as pictured is a "Short Cam' bolt handle (2006 to present) as I've coined them.

Eienstein &/or Houdini are incapable of correctly TIMING said bolt handle w/o replacement or rework.

Remove the firing pin assy from the bolt body.
Insert bolt into CLEARED receiver.
Push bolt forward & let handle/gravity rotate bolt into BATTERY.
With ONE finger & slight rearward pressure rotate bolt clockwise out of BATTERY.
When handle's knob is at 9-10oclock the handle primary extraction cam surface should kiss the receiver primary extraction cam surface....you'll have .160" clearance witnessed visually w/ approximately .020"-.030" surface contact between the 2 surfaces for primary extraction.
Repositioning the handle closer to the receiver is only 1 part of the 5 part equation to properly TIME a bolt/handle to a receiver.

Forward & aft bolt cycling is feed & eject.
Bolt rotation is TIMING to include-
Primary Extraction Cam surfaces
Bolt lugs to integral lugs
Firing pin cocking cam
Bolt body to trigger group striker clearance
 
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