Rear Locking actions?

Hey you'se inch guys........

If you've really perfected the Belleville Washer striker system, I'm interested in having a bolt built that has NO SHANK, in other words a front locking lug system but with your striker assy.....

This bolt really WOULD be only a couple INCHes long....

will your system work in a 2"-long bolt?

al
 
There have been several posts expressing interest in how rear lugged actions deflect or strain under firing pressure. This can be calculated accurately if the dimensions of the action is known but it can also be approximated which may be good enough for most purposes. Here's some numbers which may help. Just for comparison you could take all the strains in a front lugged action at zero.

At 60000 psi pressure and with .473 case head diameter:
Bolt compression of 4" long bolt is about .001/inch or .004".
Receiver strain in tension is approximately .004".
(Total strain at lugs is then .008".)
Expansion of the bolt in radial direction is about .0002".
Contraction of receiver wall would be roughly .0001".

Consider these numbers apply to a nominal size action - perhaps a 7/8" diameter bolt and a 1 - 3/8" diameter receiver.
 
Hey you'se inch guys........

If you've really perfected the Belleville Washer striker system, I'm interested in having a bolt built that has NO SHANK, in other words a front locking lug system but with your striker assy.....

This bolt really WOULD be only a couple INCHes long....

will your system work in a 2"-long bolt?

al

al,

It works since 1986 on various actions, including th RPA Quadlock and the Millenium...

The 'power pack" is 26,5 mm long decocked, 22,5mm cocked, for a 4mm firing pin travel.

For a longer FP travel, a recalcualtion would need to be made

Does this reply to your question?

R.G.C.
 
HI German , I also Agree with yourself and Tony Z , it is an apples to oranges comparison . But i would go one further and say that it is not suitable to LRBR either .. If you want to be at the pointy end of long range BR then everything has to be right ,you have to be able to shoot fast (10 shots in less than 30 seconds) or pick your way through when the conditions demand it .. You also have to be able to run loads anywhere up to 75000 psi if that's what the cartridge needs, to be a winner or run it a 50000 if thats what it requires.. I run a Magnum bolt face cartridge and spend a good deal of time reconforming the brass back each time to a usable shape just so i can fire it again .. Put the barrel / cartridge / powder/ bullet that i use now in a Inch action and you would not be able to open the bolt little alone rattle down 10 shots to capture a given condition.. Horses for courses IMO..JR..Jeff Rogers..
I agree with Tony Z that there's no sense in following up on an aside in this thread to try to make a BR rifle out of a prone/Palma/LRBR type action. The action appears to be very well suited for its intended purpose and has no excuses to make for that.

From the standpoint of a prone shooters, the remaining important element is housing it in an ergononimcally comfortable and adjustable stock and I know that Rod is working on several approaches to that apart from simply bedding it into an existing stock (which can also be done). This is a good crew, a top designer and a capable and involved manufacturer and I think we'll have an interesting platform on which to evaluate a "state of the art" rear-lug design.
 
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Put the barrel / cartridge / powder/ bullet that i use now in a Inch action and you would not be able to open the bolt little alone rattle down 10 shots to capture a given condition.. Horses for courses IMO..JR..Jeff Rogers..

Stating FACTS like this, I thought better of you mate. Have you even seen an INCH action? If your action (makes no difference what it is) doesn't blow up or lock up, neither will the INCH. This is very typical of the Australian attitude to anything made in Australia.

Can you PM me your load data (or a version of it), we do need to know the outer limits of what people are using. If you are not prepared to do this, you will need to retract your comment.

If you prefer front locking actions, thats fine by us, just don't can something you have not used.
 
I think to take an action designed specifically for prone Fullbore or FClass and test it at the short or long range BR disciplines is not really a test of anything more than the ability of the shooter to overcome the inadequacies of the design. What arena does the INCH want to be known for? Jack of all trades and master of none?
I see a venture like this as futile unless the action can be fitted with a 2 ounce trigger, fit into a weight category while retaining some sort of reasonable barrel profile, have the bolt lift effortlessly with a finger or two, extract and eject the case without disrupting the sand bags and feed another cartridge with the same lack of effort. With out this, you are asking someone to step backwards 30 years to prove a point to someone who will likely never buy the action for this purpose anyway. And lastly it has to be pretty, without that, you lose.

Agreed, it has already been said that the action is not designed for the BR role.

I say give the action to German, and another to Bruce Scott here in my home town and if you wish to get it into FClass, Bill Hallam in West Australia is the guy.

Bill Hallam is someone I respect and admire for his determination and shooting ability, along with his excellent knowledge of rifle building, and the real nitty gritty of gunsmithing etc. There is however, a problem nationally where many known rifle builders have some sort of fixation with Barnard actions. No problem with me, the INCH actions being fielded here beat them and others every time they go into a competition. Funny how people don't remember that happening.....:confused::confused:

Otherwise mate, you are a little behind in your local knowledge. We won a PM last weekend with the INCH in F Class, and have otherwise had divisional wins locally (including by myself) using the INCH at the WARA Queens. There are many other successes that would take some space here to note, which has all been done in the past 12 months or so. We have MUCH bigger fish to fry on the international scene, as will be shown from work done in other countries where the INCH is now being used by very competent shooters.

It is a shame there are no equipment lists, the wins and divisional stuff at events here would show the success of the INCH is out of all proportion to their numbers. A top 10 finish in the Grand at the 2009 Imperial Meeting at Bisley is also a good example - this is the TOP event for prone shooting. This was by a prototype, not a full production version, which are a major improvement in many areas of function. It was the ONLY INCH action fielded in the event.

The only handicap we have, is that almost all of the users to date are in lower divisions (mostly newer shooters, which includes myself). Given some time, these people will change up to higher divisions. If you look at every other action maker, this is the same process they had to undertake. The INCH has only been commercially available for about 15 months, not much time to develop a national reputation.

The INCH will have a good comparison next year in the World Championships and Palma teams events, where we will be fielding quite a number of INCH actions, and rifles built by myself - whole teams will be using them. We sell the INCH worldwide, AU is really a very small market for us. A lot of AU people just don't understand that other markets are simply a lot bigger than ours. I am absolutely confident that people will no longer have this negative view of the INCH, once they see the elevations shot at 1000 yards by people that know how to handle a rifle.

To break into the 1K arena, well that needs the three Bs. Barrels, bullets and brass. The rest is just an accessory where stocks just have to track, and the action has to hold the scope, trigger and pressure. Ugly works just fine in 1K.:D

Absolutely, this is something brought home for me as recently as last weekend. I have learned a lot over the past few months where some time has been spent in F Class, more so to gain knowledge from a different persective on rifles, barrels, loading techniques and all that, to bring back to the Target Rifle discipline.
 
I,m Pretty sure that it is forum policy not to hand out loads ,and it is mine too..JR..Jeff Rogers
Stating FACTS like this, I thought better of you mate. Have you even seen an INCH action? If your action (makes no difference what it is) doesn't blow up or lock up, neither will the INCH. This is very typical of the Australian attitude to anything made in Australia.

Can you PM me your load data (or a version of it), we do need to know the outer limits of what people are using. If you are not prepared to do this, you will need to retract your comment.

If you prefer front locking actions, thats fine by us, just don't can something you have not used.
 
I,m Pretty sure that it is forum policy not to hand out loads ,and it is mine too..JR..Jeff Rogers

Yep, thought that would happen. Typical big talk and no action - just like the AU forums.

BTW, anyone with gear exhibiting pressure signs as you describe would be immediately removed from the firing line in our discipline. Being an RO myself, it would be my pleasure:):)
 
Aussie Action

Rod
Respectfully, trying to hawk (promote) your action as the next hot BR action in the USA is like trying sell those Australian wind flags I saw at the Nats in St Louis several years ago, no interest in them. I can think of at least 5 current USA BR actions and several old school actions that will outsell any action that comes out of Australia or Europe. We are happy over here with American products and American gunsmiths. Why not try South Africa or France, we don't need another BR action over here. Made in America means something to me and the shooters I know. Sorry.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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Rod
Respectfully, trying to hawk (promote) your action as the next hot BR action in the USA is like trying sell those Australian wind flags I saw at the Nats in St Louis several years ago, no interest in them. I can think of at least 5 current USA BR actions and several old school actions that will outsell any action that comes out of Australia or Europe. We are happy over here with American products and American gunsmiths. Why not try South Africa or France, we don't need another BR action over here. Made in America means something to me and the shooters I know. Sorry.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR



Woody Rod,

As long as a discussion remain what it should be, it is interesting and there is always something to learn from other"s points.

When it becomes a horns to horns clash, it is an argument… There is nothing more to learn,,except……

When one praise shooting at something I immediately translated to 5150 bars, and seem to not be asked for moderation, I can only notice I would not be behind, next bench or even around when this happen? Carrying a mallet to help open a bolt is something I have much too often seen…

Finally, when ostracism start to prevail, there is nothing more to say.. just break..
So, bye bye, ladies and gentlemen. I enjoyed your company and conversationion…up to the last few posts.

R.G.C
 
Now as a couple have commented at the pressures a.JR is running at it's worth pointing them at this link where they can watch the equipment in operation.

accurateshooter (Long range shooter)

I for one do not see any exhibited pressure signs nor anyone running for cover in fear of their life because of a rifle running 5150 bar of pressure.

To me it is sufficient enough to highlight that the guy knows what he's talking about. Not only is he shooting it but doing so for years (check the date on the article).

As for his loads. It took me about a minute to find them. They're no big secret.
 
Rod
Respectfully, trying to hawk (promote) your action as the next hot BR action in the USA is like trying sell those Australian wind flags I saw at the Nats in St Louis several years ago, no interest in them. I can think of at least 5 current USA BR actions and several old school actions that will outsell any action that comes out of Australia or Europe. We are happy over here with American products and American gunsmiths. Why not try South Africa or France, we don't need another BR action over here. Made in America means something to me and the shooters I know. Sorry.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Read my post. We were discussing rear locking actions, not hawking anything.
 
The negativity just follows from Australia. I won't bother posting any more. This happens all the time....some technical discussion gets taken over by self proclaimed experts with no technical background, stating wives tails and other outdated rubbish.

See yas..
 
R.G.C. and Woody Rod

Guys,
I am one of the folks who likes to read and learn, and I appreciate those who post good information that helps me learn. This is an interesting thread, about an interesting subject, with good information. Please, don't stop posting. Lots of folks might be reading this who would find something of value in it. I have long enjoyed Enfields, I like the smoothness and quickness of the action. I did not, and still do not, have a problem with rear locking actions. You have helped further my education about rear locking actions. The INCH action is interesting, and I am enjoying learning about it.

I would not take an Enfield to a benchrest match. That's fine. I also would not take a benchrest rifle to combat. That is fine too. Benchrest rifles are good benchrest target rifles. Enfields are proven combat rifles. They also have been good target rifles at different points in time.

There is no such thing as a perfect rifle for all disciplines. But this ain't all bad, as it allows us to use many different types of rifle, and hopefully, enjoy them all!

You guys are working on a rifle with a purpose. Please continue the discussion!

Respectfully,
Greg
 
Great Point Greg

The modern Benchrest Rifle has evolved into a very singular purpose piece of equipment. In it's enviroment, nothing can touch it. But, in other enviroments, it can reach a point of total impractibility.

At our local range, shooters often come over and marvel at the level of accuracy and precision we are able to achieve. Especially if I happen to have my Rail Gun on the Bench. But, I try to explain that that is exactly what this thing is supposed to do. Think how absolutly useless it would be if it would NOT shoot at the level of precision and accuracy that is required in 100-200 yard Benchrest.

The analogy can be compared to a a typical NHRA Pro Stock Car. It is amazing that they can cover the quarter mile in 6.50 seconds, and reach 210+ mph.

But, I doubt it would be very practicle making a grocery run to the local Kroger.

The actions being discussed are designed for optimum performance in a specific inviroment. Take them out of that inviroment, and what makes them so well suited for their relm becomes a detrement in another.........jackie
 
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The original poster of this thread asked on another forum why Woody didn't manufacture a Rem 700 footprint action free of royalties for the market in Australia. Stocks are available as are triggers, bases etc. That would have made sense as it fitted the requests of varmint, BR, tactical and field shooters throughout Australia that were not willing to wait months to get a US action. To produce the INCH is limiting the sales to a pool of maybe 4500 prone and FClass shooters here with hopes of getting into the international market. To think you will get into the other areas without the rest of the package that goes with it is misguided. The problem with the international market is that there are a lot of big fish to compete with, in Australia there is virtually no-one, except for the two that co share the sales and import of Barnard actions from NZ.
What all this boils down to is if you are about making money, the Rem 700 footprint makes lots of sense, but if it's about making something revolutionary, then it had better be great or it may go the route of the Swing, Paramount, Millenium and maybe even the RPA.
 
Guys,
I am one of the folks who likes to read and learn, and I appreciate those who post good information that helps me learn. This is an interesting thread, about an interesting subject, with good information. Please, don't stop posting. Lots of folks might be reading this who would find something of value in it. I have long enjoyed Enfields, I like the smoothness and quickness of the action. I did not, and still do not, have a problem with rear locking actions. You have helped further my education about rear locking actions. The INCH action is interesting, and I am enjoying learning about it.

I would not take an Enfield to a benchrest match. That's fine. I also would not take a benchrest rifle to combat. That is fine too. Benchrest rifles are good benchrest target rifles. Enfields are proven combat rifles. They also have been good target rifles at different points in time.

There is no such thing as a perfect rifle for all disciplines. But this ain't all bad, as it allows us to use many different types of rifle, and hopefully, enjoy them all!

You guys are working on a rifle with a purpose. Please continue the discussion!

Respectfully,
Greg


Many thanks, Greg, for your kind words. Woody is impassionnated by what he does (very well, I am glad to say). I am well over the age of passion...

Will think about your psot a little before eventually going further.

Veryy sincerely yours
Robert
 
Rod
Respectfully, trying to hawk (promote) your action as the next hot BR action in the USA is like trying sell those Australian wind flags I saw at the Nats in St Louis several years ago, no interest in them. I can think of at least 5 current USA BR actions and several old school actions that will outsell any action that comes out of Australia or Europe. We are happy over here with American products and American gunsmiths. Why not try South Africa or France, we don't need another BR action over here. Made in America means something to me and the shooters I know. Sorry.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

With all due respect I ask you Stephen what are you on about,at one stage you said that you would like to see one trialed as a BR action,thought that they would work,all this bearing in mind that at no stage was anyone hawking the product and then this little rant..........................what gives.




Regards Chris.
 
Mauser 66 and Steyr action with rear locking lugs of the 80's

In the 1980's I tested some bolt action rifles that shot ok when action was dry. I had a problem with the magazine action on one of the rifles tested and we put some oil in it to make it function all right. This was done to make cartridges chamber without trouble. Oil on cartridges made the hits come 80cm lower on the 300m target being used. All rifles with rear locking lugs tested made an impact change of about 80cm lower at 300m. With the front locking lugs no change at all. Maybe someone should try a little water or oil on the cartridges to see what happens? Does it yield?
 
Chris

Respectfully, Rod asked for a competitor BR smith that could build a rifle using his rear lug action. I gave him a smith that I compete with that could build anything he wants in a BR gun for a price always a price. Rod never got back with me so I assumed he was testing the waters on a good USA BR smith. Hey no problem with his rear lug action I even stated I know at least 2 788's that became good BR guns mine being one of them.

Hawking a new BR action is always a project as Stiller knows here in the States. Jerry makes a fine set of BR actions that for many are their base for a BR gun, snake series actions like the viper and rattle snake.

See how far this thread goes. Chris do you guys use barrels with left twists like your toilets that flow backwards or do you go for the Hart, Krieger, Bartlein, Shilen barrels we use. Have a good day in sunny Australia/New Zealand, nice place to shoot.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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