M
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This board has been a wealth of information over the years, but just seems to be getting a bit PC these days.
I can understand not trashing a supplier after all everyone has a bad day once in a while.
But (there is a BUT) when a supplier is continually bad then the word seems to travel through PM's and word of mouth......some people listen some don't. I could name a supplier who has taken a substantial payment back in 2005 and still hasn't delivered.......but that is NOT what this board is about or for.
When it comes to saying "who" the poster thinks is best at something and another poster not agreeing and arguments busting out, well I think there must be more children than adults on here. This is a bit like the Ford, Chev, BMW, and Chrysler argument. (notice how I slipped in BMW)
If some people say "X" is the best and another few say that "Y" is the best and another few say that "Z" is the best it is still up to everyone reading it to make up their own mind who's personal opinion to believe, after all it is only a personal opinion that the poster is putting forward.
When it comes to not allowing personal opinions in posts out of some fear of alienating a supplier or trying to be neutral then how are new comers supposed to learn and come to educated conclusions?.......Ian
I can understand not trashing a supplier after all everyone has a bad day once in a while.
But (there is a BUT) when a supplier is continually bad then the word seems to travel through PM's and word of mouth......some people listen some don't. I could name a supplier who has taken a substantial payment back in 2005 and still hasn't delivered.......but that is NOT what this board is about or for.
When it comes to saying "who" the poster thinks is best at something and another poster not agreeing and arguments busting out, well I think there must be more children than adults on here. This is a bit like the Ford, Chev, BMW, and Chrysler argument. (notice how I slipped in BMW)
If some people say "X" is the best and another few say that "Y" is the best and another few say that "Z" is the best it is still up to everyone reading it to make up their own mind who's personal opinion to believe, after all it is only a personal opinion that the poster is putting forward.
When it comes to not allowing personal opinions in posts out of some fear of alienating a supplier or trying to be neutral then how are new comers supposed to learn and come to educated conclusions?.......Ian
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It is a dilemma. In the past, Wilbur has allowed there are other ways for this kind of information to be passed along. BR Central even supports this, in the form of a Personal Message. To his credit, Wilbur has even brokered disputes, in order to right some wrongs, yet not have negative reports on suppliers peppering the forum. I doubt he's changed his position much on endorsing/trashing suppliers, but if he has, he'll have to speak to that.. . . When it comes to not allowing personal opinions in posts out of some fear of alienating a supplier or trying to be neutral then how are new comers supposed to learn and come to educated conclusions?.......Ian
As I say, I don't know the answer, save to use personal communication, including PMs. What I do find so odd is this has come up over reamers. Suppose the OP has said "gunsmith" instead of "reamer grinder"? That (gunsmiths) has come up many times, and no one tries to say who's best. But with reamers, the question always seems to get answers.
Reamers seem to be my bane. As far as telling stories about not being satisfied, I could tell one if the rules allowed. The tool cut just fine. Sadly, it wasn't what was specified. I figured this out after Jim Carstensen made my die, too. That's a fair bit of money invested. That was about the time I figured a long wait was preferable to the other option. Someone with Jackie's skill probably would have been able to measure things right away, and spot a small discrepancy. It took me until after I'd made up & fireformed the first batch of cases. Most of us fall into that amateur category.
Edit:
I mention Jim Carstensen by name because he's the only guy I know who makes a FL die from a chambering reamer. He doesn't make reamers. Don't read anything else into that.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Max,
Check your PMs.
Check your PMs.
M
maxguerz
Guest
I responded
M
maxguerz
Guest
Sorry, I do not know your rules to ask who is better.but I think to be fair to say their opinion,believe to be pointless not to name who is better or not.In Italy to shoot the br we have to buy equipment in the U.S. and is often mistaken.Sorry my writing is not just help me with the translator
Max,
Your English is just fine. It is far better than most of us can use any foreign language.
This, I think, is what will work. First of all, for short-range benchrest, both Wayne Campbell and Jack Neary are very knowledgeable. More knowledgeable than 99.5 percent of the people who post here.
Aside from being a world-class competitor, Wayne Campbell is a professional gunsmith, who knows both the tools needed to build rifles, and their use. And Wayne is very willing to help people. I was loading next to him a match just after he won the World Championship, and as you can imagine, there was a stream of people coming up to him, asking questions. Some of them were pretty dumb questions. And Wayne, being Wayne, was trying to win the match, even though it was just a regional shoot. But he took the time to deal with all those people asking questions, with both grace and good answers. I don't know Jack Neary, but I imagine he is the same way.
So first of all, I would take very seriously any advice they give you.
Secondly, there are a number of people who post regularly to BR Central who don't even shoot benchrest. Another thing we're not going to do is name names, that is, to tell you who on BR Central is very knowledgeable, and who just gets their information from rumors. It is your job, sadly, to figure that out.
Most of us fit in between, we have some real good information on some things, not so good on others. And even we can't always tell the difference about what we know.
Finally, BR Central is not really a place to help you become a better competitor, a better pure shooter. There is a story about Carlos Hathcock, a legendary U.S. Marine sniper of the Vietnam era. He was asked a technical question about rifles, and replied, "I don't build them, I just shoot them." That's probably a good way for someone who wants to be a world-class shooter to think.
The people who post here have a love of rifles, especially accurate ones. More than a few build their own rifles, and I suspect, get much of their pleasure from doing well with the rifles they build. If someone asked me whether I would rather get a top-ten placement at a National match with a rifle I built, or win outright with someone else's rifle, I'd have to think about it.
Now I imagine a number of people have sent you personal messages. Again, you're going to have to figure out who, if any, has any additional knowledge over Wayne Campbell or Jack Neary. And just in case those two gentlemen gave you different answers, I'd take that to mean both reamer grinders are good rather than one is better than the other.
* * *
So if you have a love of why rifles are accurate, I think Benchrest Central is a wonderful place to be. If your primary goal is to become a better competitive shooter, I don't think we'll be too much help. As I'm sure you've noticed, the world-class shooters don't post that much here. It is hard to communicate their knowledge with words -- except "practice, practice, practice until you've figuered out just how much a gentle change in wind moves a 65-grain, 6mm bullet.
Best Regards,
Charles
Your English is just fine. It is far better than most of us can use any foreign language.
This, I think, is what will work. First of all, for short-range benchrest, both Wayne Campbell and Jack Neary are very knowledgeable. More knowledgeable than 99.5 percent of the people who post here.
Aside from being a world-class competitor, Wayne Campbell is a professional gunsmith, who knows both the tools needed to build rifles, and their use. And Wayne is very willing to help people. I was loading next to him a match just after he won the World Championship, and as you can imagine, there was a stream of people coming up to him, asking questions. Some of them were pretty dumb questions. And Wayne, being Wayne, was trying to win the match, even though it was just a regional shoot. But he took the time to deal with all those people asking questions, with both grace and good answers. I don't know Jack Neary, but I imagine he is the same way.
So first of all, I would take very seriously any advice they give you.
Secondly, there are a number of people who post regularly to BR Central who don't even shoot benchrest. Another thing we're not going to do is name names, that is, to tell you who on BR Central is very knowledgeable, and who just gets their information from rumors. It is your job, sadly, to figure that out.
Most of us fit in between, we have some real good information on some things, not so good on others. And even we can't always tell the difference about what we know.
Finally, BR Central is not really a place to help you become a better competitor, a better pure shooter. There is a story about Carlos Hathcock, a legendary U.S. Marine sniper of the Vietnam era. He was asked a technical question about rifles, and replied, "I don't build them, I just shoot them." That's probably a good way for someone who wants to be a world-class shooter to think.
The people who post here have a love of rifles, especially accurate ones. More than a few build their own rifles, and I suspect, get much of their pleasure from doing well with the rifles they build. If someone asked me whether I would rather get a top-ten placement at a National match with a rifle I built, or win outright with someone else's rifle, I'd have to think about it.
Now I imagine a number of people have sent you personal messages. Again, you're going to have to figure out who, if any, has any additional knowledge over Wayne Campbell or Jack Neary. And just in case those two gentlemen gave you different answers, I'd take that to mean both reamer grinders are good rather than one is better than the other.
* * *
So if you have a love of why rifles are accurate, I think Benchrest Central is a wonderful place to be. If your primary goal is to become a better competitive shooter, I don't think we'll be too much help. As I'm sure you've noticed, the world-class shooters don't post that much here. It is hard to communicate their knowledge with words -- except "practice, practice, practice until you've figuered out just how much a gentle change in wind moves a 65-grain, 6mm bullet.
Best Regards,
Charles
M
maxguerz
Guest
Charles,
M
maxguerz
Guest
Charles,thanks for your advice...I'm not good shooter fairly good results this year.WBC11 3°classified HV aggregate Italy team B and 7 classified 10 shots aggregate 200mt......but when you love BR and accuracy are always looking for what is best!!Again I live in Italy and here it is hard to have bullets barrels ...so we try to ask you to have fewer problems with material.My friend went to super shoot tells me that if you want the barrel no problem!In Italy if you find one you use so...good or not!we consider that costs € 900 ready barrel(1200$)....This is one reason why you are asking questions that may seem "rude".however, I learned the rules of BR central and do more...Max
Max, I have a good friend in Italy who spent a year in the States. We got him a benchrest rifle built here -- quickly, as he wanted to shoot, and many builds in the U.S. take over 6 months to complete. He has the Italian equivalent of the U.S. FFL license, but even with that, getting his rifle to Italy was a long, nighmarish problem. When he was leaving, he called me from the airport, as BOAC was giving him problems (erroneously, as we later found out). Anyway, I had to go out to the airport & pick up the rifle, so he could get on the plane with his wife and kids.
So, I know first-hand some of the problems with international shooting. . .
Like with the rifles, we'll get you the information, just a bit slower.
Charles
So, I know first-hand some of the problems with international shooting. . .
Like with the rifles, we'll get you the information, just a bit slower.
Charles
I guess people are just going to beat around the bush. Pacific precision AKA JGS David kiff, Manson is supposed to be on par with kiff from what i have heard from other shooters, Clymer makes a good one also but maybe your best deal will be with KIFF, Check his web site . I hope his helps.
And of course, Hugh Henriksen makes reamers for both Kelbly's and Al Warner (of Warner Tools).I guess people are just going to beat around the bush. Pacific precision AKA JGS David kiff, Manson is supposed to be on par with kiff from what i have heard from other shooters, Clymer makes a good one also but maybe your best deal will be with KIFF, Check his web site . I hope his helps.
The PPC is a pretty well known entity. There are existing patterns; getting the numbers just right is over half the battle, and that pretty much disappears when there is an established pattern a particular maker already has on file. Perhaps the most important question is what brass is Max going to use, reformed Lapua .220 Russian, or the new Norma 6PPC? Next question would be what dies -- i.e., is he going to try and use his existing dies?
M
maxguerz
Guest
Charles,now in Italy we had a small victory...the government has lifted the national catalog.Now we can buy a rifle in the U.S. without having to go to gunsmith and request catalog number(sometimes it takes a year)I hope I do not put a new law to further complicate....
M
maxguerz
Guest
And of course, Hugh Henriksen makes reamers for both Kelbly's and Al Warner (of Warner Tools).
The PPC is a pretty well known entity. There are existing patterns; getting the numbers just right is over half the battle, and that pretty much disappears when there is an established pattern a particular maker already has on file. Perhaps the most important question is what brass is Max going to use, reformed Lapua .220 Russian, or the new Norma 6PPC? Next question would be what dies -- i.e., is he going to try and use his existing dies?
now I use 220 Russian...and I have a PTG reamer(speedy-boyer)...not bad but there are some measures to change(I think)
now I use 220 Russian...and I have a PTG reamer(speedy-boyer)...not bad but there are some measures to change(I think)
Max, this is not an answer but here's what I do when people are unable to answer my direct question... or are unwilling.
Several of these reamer makers claim to be of similar aptitude. I pick one. I explain what I want and IN WRITING I describe my wants and IN WRITING I let it be known that I will not pay for the reamer unless it meets my specifications. When the reamer works I happily pay but when it does not work I can return it with a clear conscience. I've still lost considerable money and time but now I'm not STUCK with a garbage tool and a bad attitude.
This works to eliminate the incompetent manufacturers. A certain fellow may well make a good reamer, even a great reamer, but still be an incompetent manufacturer.
I have a notebook full of incompetent manufacturers, and a small book of competent manufacturers.
You, being in another country have a larger problem (time) so I really hope someone will step up to help you.
al
I´m also located outside USA, and know the pain... It really isn´t as easy as just ordering new stuff when the old isn´t working.
Anyways, even the best chamber reamer must be used togeather with a fitted FL die in order to take advatage of the reamer. Don´t fool yourself into ordering reamers without having a plan on how to size the brass, before you order! Trust me, been there, done that!
What I did before I ordere my first reamer was to ask my gunsmith were he bought his from. I have stayed with the same brand since, but there might be others out there that are better, who knows.
Anyways, even the best chamber reamer must be used togeather with a fitted FL die in order to take advatage of the reamer. Don´t fool yourself into ordering reamers without having a plan on how to size the brass, before you order! Trust me, been there, done that!
What I did before I ordere my first reamer was to ask my gunsmith were he bought his from. I have stayed with the same brand since, but there might be others out there that are better, who knows.
Max, I just had a crazy thought. When you asked "What's best," did you mean the name of the manufacturer, or the specifications -- i.e., how much freebore, what base diameter, etc.? That one is not only "allowed" on BR Central, but is our meat. We can discuss that until you're tired of us!
I strongly agree with Mr Erickson, in fact I believe that many "better" reamers have gained this reputation because of the fit they have with the owner's sizer die.
Also that many of the reamer makers have made their reputation by being able to replicate certain spec's over and over. When you step off into your own custom specifications, like trying to match YOUR sizing die, you will find only a small number of capable manufacturers.
And no Charles I'm not going to answer privately. There are ways around this so-called conundrum. Ethical ways where no-one gets hurt.
I've owned my own business for almost 30yrs.... with most of my work being CUSTOM and most of my customers being REPEAT.
I don't advertise, I'm not in the phone book. Few understand the implications of this.
I live and die on reputation alone, every day.
I truly understand the issue.
al
Also that many of the reamer makers have made their reputation by being able to replicate certain spec's over and over. When you step off into your own custom specifications, like trying to match YOUR sizing die, you will find only a small number of capable manufacturers.
And no Charles I'm not going to answer privately. There are ways around this so-called conundrum. Ethical ways where no-one gets hurt.
I've owned my own business for almost 30yrs.... with most of my work being CUSTOM and most of my customers being REPEAT.
I don't advertise, I'm not in the phone book. Few understand the implications of this.
I live and die on reputation alone, every day.
I truly understand the issue.
al