"Reading Wind" at 1000 yards in Benchrest competition. I want your opinion?
R
rcw3
Guest
Need to wind read
Jim
Good posting!
I cannot speak to what's in the minds of everyone, but it seems some of the bench rest shooters look at wind reading as relative to finding a condition they believe might hold while they get all their shots down range while a specific condition exists (which may or may not happen). If you have the capability of "hammering" your record shots down range in a very short period of time (as some bench rest shooters do) this technique can serve one very well in that discipline (but certainly not always and not when conditions are moving and changing quickly and repeatedly).
One big issue with prone and F-Class shooting is the extended length of time needed to get all your record rounds down range (while your target puller tediously pulls your target and marks it after each shot). With this type of shooting you almost never seem to get the luxury of having conditions hold for the period needed to get your record shots off, which requires you to be good at working with two options (if you hope to win matches):
1. To spot out and shoot during a specific type of condition and hold up shooting when that condition does not exist (and hope you get enough times with the condition you like to get all your shots down range in bits and pieces). If things are such that this option is not realistic or becomes unfeasible, then
2. To be able to know how and where to look at conditions and determine what corrections you need to make (based on current conditions) to keep the bullets hitting in the same place, and this is a much harder skill for sure. I don't know that a lot of bench rest shooters become proficient at this skill (some do), and certainly quite a few prone and F-Class shooters have trouble here too. In truth, it almost seems many shooters try everything they can to dodge having to deal with this, when they really should be working hard to learn how to employ this skill to win. Jerry Tierney is one who employs this skill well in both bench rest and prone matches.
For me, the larger point of your posting is that there are overlaps in disciplines, and that the interactions and lessons and proficiencies from those of different disciplines may be helpful and useful to you in your own particular discipline (i.e. if you knew some of the things when you were a bench rest shooter that you later learned about wind reading as a prone shooter, you feel you would have done better).
Robert Whitley
Jim
Good posting!
I cannot speak to what's in the minds of everyone, but it seems some of the bench rest shooters look at wind reading as relative to finding a condition they believe might hold while they get all their shots down range while a specific condition exists (which may or may not happen). If you have the capability of "hammering" your record shots down range in a very short period of time (as some bench rest shooters do) this technique can serve one very well in that discipline (but certainly not always and not when conditions are moving and changing quickly and repeatedly).
One big issue with prone and F-Class shooting is the extended length of time needed to get all your record rounds down range (while your target puller tediously pulls your target and marks it after each shot). With this type of shooting you almost never seem to get the luxury of having conditions hold for the period needed to get your record shots off, which requires you to be good at working with two options (if you hope to win matches):
1. To spot out and shoot during a specific type of condition and hold up shooting when that condition does not exist (and hope you get enough times with the condition you like to get all your shots down range in bits and pieces). If things are such that this option is not realistic or becomes unfeasible, then
2. To be able to know how and where to look at conditions and determine what corrections you need to make (based on current conditions) to keep the bullets hitting in the same place, and this is a much harder skill for sure. I don't know that a lot of bench rest shooters become proficient at this skill (some do), and certainly quite a few prone and F-Class shooters have trouble here too. In truth, it almost seems many shooters try everything they can to dodge having to deal with this, when they really should be working hard to learn how to employ this skill to win. Jerry Tierney is one who employs this skill well in both bench rest and prone matches.
For me, the larger point of your posting is that there are overlaps in disciplines, and that the interactions and lessons and proficiencies from those of different disciplines may be helpful and useful to you in your own particular discipline (i.e. if you knew some of the things when you were a bench rest shooter that you later learned about wind reading as a prone shooter, you feel you would have done better).
Robert Whitley
Yo Jim,
not sure if this post was aimed at me, "Al" or if you meant to say "All".........
But if it was for me, first of all, Thank You
No, I'm not an unbeliever nor is my mind "set against it." I spend an inordinate amount of my time shooting at 100yds, over 4 flags and a Begg's Wind Probe. I can't read wind worth spit but a few buckets of primers over 20yrs have definitely driven the point home, I simply don't bother shooting at 100 without flags.........
Doesn't mean a thing at 600yds though. FOR ME.... Except to look for windows.
I bring a probe to the 600yd matches here......
Others have been also bringing flags of late, sometimes as many as three have been present, plus the range flags sometimes.
I dial for mirage.......
I look for trends.....
I have "held up" the entire line many times just setting and watching. Most guys just want to get it over with..... in fact, the ONLY reason I'd ever quit coming is because of the folks who feel I'm imposing upon their precious space by using the rules allotted.
But in the end I run'em like a banshee (well, not exactly. But as fast as my current setup allows) and I'm very happy with my performance. I'm busy making the rookie mistakes (dropping shots, blowing up bullets, popping primers, forgetting to tighten the rest, forgetting to dial out the parallax etc etc) I even AD'd and fired eleven shots into my last target at the last match......STILL placed OK.....
But I'm always in the hunt, I'm not the least bit intimidated to shoot wherever against whomever in 600yd or 1000. Whereas at 100-200 I'll get my ass handed to me, I KNOW this, I've shot with these guys...... but at 600-1000??? I'm waiting to meet one of these "wind readers."
I will absolutely agree with your statement above " if you think you can shoot at 1000 yards, and max out your abilities to the last drop, without being able to read and select a narrow bracket window in which to make your run -- you are just wrong." but this is the total extent of my "wind reading"........ looking for a big enough window.
Incidentally, I'm also completely confused by the "lights up, sights up" thing....... all the highpower type guys swear by it, and I have had unexplained vertical poppers, but I can't duplicate it at home.
But enough of my whining
I'll continue trying to figger out the wind, at least trying to find a hole in it. I don't much care if it's blowing a gale as long as I can find "my" hole.....
It's still completely weird though to STOP a string and set back for 3-4 minutes waiting...... then to give up,
hold off,
and find several shots right where I held to.
I'm trying to find 10 colors of Sharpie..... so far I've got 7 .......
LOL
al
But I'm always in the hunt, I'm not the least bit intimidated to shoot wherever against whomever in 600yd or 1000. Whereas at 100-200 I'll get my ass handed to me, I KNOW this, I've shot with these guys...... but at 600-1000??? I'm waiting to meet one of these "wind readers."
Alinwa
If you come to the NBRSA 1,000 Yard Nationals in October you will be competing against several of the Wind Readers.
Jerry Tierney,Wally Laursen,Pete White,Brenda Hill and Ted Conway to name a few.
Waterboy
Alinwa
If you come to the NBRSA 1,000 Yard Nationals in October you will be competing against several of the Wind Readers.
Jerry Tierney,Wally Laursen,Pete White,Brenda Hill and Ted Conway to name a few.
Waterboy
I'd love to be there. Sad thing is, I'll probably be driving right by. My kid's coming in from the front sometime in October (?) and we're driving down to meet him at 29 Palms and then over to Phoenix for a party with the wounded from Kilo 3/7.
steenkin' priorities....... but this one overrides alla' you'se guys.
al
Al:
Dang . . . sorry about that. Typo corrected to "All". I saw your post, and must have had you on my mind because everytime I see your name I think about you being the King of fire forming the way it should be done. Thanks for your great points. This has been a pretty good thread for viewing different opinions on how to get small in the middle of the target.
Thanks,
Jim Hardy
Dang . . . sorry about that. Typo corrected to "All". I saw your post, and must have had you on my mind because everytime I see your name I think about you being the King of fire forming the way it should be done. Thanks for your great points. This has been a pretty good thread for viewing different opinions on how to get small in the middle of the target.
Thanks,
Jim Hardy
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
I concur with everything that Jim has kindly taken the time to share with us from his cross cultural experience. I want to add a couple of anecdotes in the "for what its worth" category. Last week I was on my way to Oak Ridge with Pete Leberge for the Tenn. State Long Range Champonship. For those that don't know Pete he's a former LR National Champ, has won the Wimbleton and was the US Team Captain (Palma) for seven years. He has never shot BR. I was sharing this thread's discussion with him and Jerry's statements about adjusting between shots for 1k BR. Pete immediately said "Well, Jerry shoots at Sacramento." as if that explained everything. He went on to say that in 1995, at the NZ National LR Champ that preceded the World Palma Champ that he (Pete) had 14 moa wind on his sight, shot an X, observed a reverse, took all that off his sight and added 8 moa the other way and shot another X. Twenty two minutes adjustment and back to back X's. Pretty cool. I think cross-pollination is a good thing.
Greg
Greg
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It is a cool story.
Correct me if I'm wrong -- the particulars of the math is something I'm not use to running.
Let's assume a bullet BC of .480 and an MV of about 3,000 fps -- should be about right for a Palma rifle. OK, a 10 mph pure crosswind would blow that bullet about 85 inches at 1,000 yards. So a 22 minute change would be, say, from 14 mph pure left wind reversing to 11 mph pure right wind, ignoring the 10 inches available in the X-ring.
And that 10-inch X-ring. If you're centered up with a rifle that has zero dispersion, you have 5 inches to spare. A misread of about half a mph crosswind (really, .625 mph), over the 1,000 yards, would take you outside the X-ring.
I must have done the math wrong. We can read to about a quarter MPH with 100 yard benchrest, using 3 to 5 windflags between us and the target.
No, I'm not being sarcastic -- What are the real numbers in terms of wind?
Correct me if I'm wrong -- the particulars of the math is something I'm not use to running.
Let's assume a bullet BC of .480 and an MV of about 3,000 fps -- should be about right for a Palma rifle. OK, a 10 mph pure crosswind would blow that bullet about 85 inches at 1,000 yards. So a 22 minute change would be, say, from 14 mph pure left wind reversing to 11 mph pure right wind, ignoring the 10 inches available in the X-ring.
And that 10-inch X-ring. If you're centered up with a rifle that has zero dispersion, you have 5 inches to spare. A misread of about half a mph crosswind (really, .625 mph), over the 1,000 yards, would take you outside the X-ring.
I must have done the math wrong. We can read to about a quarter MPH with 100 yard benchrest, using 3 to 5 windflags between us and the target.
No, I'm not being sarcastic -- What are the real numbers in terms of wind?
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
Hey Charles,
Your math looks right to me. Pete wasn't claiming that he could do this with any regularity, only that he did it....that time....fifteen years ago....on the other side of the world. Interesting stories often include unusual events. Pete also has a story about bumping his trigger accidentally with the sights aligned very low and being saved with an X when the target puller pulled his target also mistakenly as he shot. He won the match. If you shoot long enough, happy accidents will eventually occur. The unlikely success of a twenty two minute sight adjustment for even a champion is what makes this remembrance so delicious.
Greg
Your math looks right to me. Pete wasn't claiming that he could do this with any regularity, only that he did it....that time....fifteen years ago....on the other side of the world. Interesting stories often include unusual events. Pete also has a story about bumping his trigger accidentally with the sights aligned very low and being saved with an X when the target puller pulled his target also mistakenly as he shot. He won the match. If you shoot long enough, happy accidents will eventually occur. The unlikely success of a twenty two minute sight adjustment for even a champion is what makes this remembrance so delicious.
Greg
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Hey Joe,
I can amble about 3 mph. Reading 1/6 of that speed change over 1,000 yards is not something I think I can do.
Yes, the 1K NRA target 10-ring is about equal to our 8 ring. On our target, I can shoot an 80s most of the itme. I've never shot a 100. Was talking to 3-times IBS champion Danny Brooks in the pits at the last mach. He's shot two of them in what, the last 15 years? His personal bane is he's never shot a 50 with LG, so I have him there.
Has anybody ever shot a 10-X 100 on our target?
I can amble about 3 mph. Reading 1/6 of that speed change over 1,000 yards is not something I think I can do.
Yes, the 1K NRA target 10-ring is about equal to our 8 ring. On our target, I can shoot an 80s most of the itme. I've never shot a 100. Was talking to 3-times IBS champion Danny Brooks in the pits at the last mach. He's shot two of them in what, the last 15 years? His personal bane is he's never shot a 50 with LG, so I have him there.
Has anybody ever shot a 10-X 100 on our target?
Charles
I think Ken Brucklacker had 8 in the X with a 3.147 inch group. There is a picture on or web sight that shows Matt Dienes at an IBS Nationals with 9 in the X during practice. And my wife had a 5-X with them all in the patch.
Milanuk
God bless you guys that still don't need a scope to see. I ment the F class targets.
Joe Salt
I think Ken Brucklacker had 8 in the X with a 3.147 inch group. There is a picture on or web sight that shows Matt Dienes at an IBS Nationals with 9 in the X during practice. And my wife had a 5-X with them all in the patch.
Milanuk
God bless you guys that still don't need a scope to see. I ment the F class targets.
Joe Salt
Joe, I went and looked, my best is a 7-X, but a 99.
I think we should put a serious bounty on shooting a 10-X.
I don't believe the IBS keeps a record. Even though we went to X-count to break ties, the *record* targets still seem to use group size. Still, an 10-X group would have to be about 3 inches, so I think we can guarantee there are none in IBS. Dunno about NBRSA.
I'd kick in some prize money, anyone else? Open to all, but must be shot at a registered match, and be verified by the sanctioning body.
I think we should put a serious bounty on shooting a 10-X.
I don't believe the IBS keeps a record. Even though we went to X-count to break ties, the *record* targets still seem to use group size. Still, an 10-X group would have to be about 3 inches, so I think we can guarantee there are none in IBS. Dunno about NBRSA.
I'd kick in some prize money, anyone else? Open to all, but must be shot at a registered match, and be verified by the sanctioning body.
S
swc123
Guest
I stand in awe of the achievements and results of 1K BR shooters, not one myself, but do shoot fullbore Targer Rifle in South Africa.
Keep in mind that fullbore TR is shot from the prone position, off the elbows with only a jacket and sling for support, with iron sights. In most Commonwealth countries, specifically the UK, Canada and South Africa, shooting is conducted with 3 shooters assigned to a target, firing one shot each in rotation until the required number of shots hace been fired. Shooting is conducted with straight .308Win caliber rifles shooting 155gr HPBT match bullets at approx 3000fps (ballistically challenged!!). Rules call for a shot to be fired within 45secs from when the target has been raised, in a 15shot match with 2x sighters this implies that a detail can take up to 38 mins and even longer, allowing for the time taken by the marker to mark the target, thus 45mins to complete a 15 shot match is not uncommon. You better believe the wind is going to change in that period of time, and to get a full score with high central count, you must be able to read the wind, even on our "large" target dimensions.
Each to his own.
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
4
4Mesh
Guest
John,
It comes to the top every time someone votes in the poll. I suggested in another thread that someone lock it. Perhaps if I simply ask here it will happen.
Please if some mod would lock this thread, it would be appreciated. Or, if you can simply make the poll expire, that would be even better.
It comes to the top every time someone votes in the poll. I suggested in another thread that someone lock it. Perhaps if I simply ask here it will happen.
Please if some mod would lock this thread, it would be appreciated. Or, if you can simply make the poll expire, that would be even better.