"Reading Wind" at 1000 yards in Benchrest competition. I want your opinion?

[4Mesh]

NOTE FOR POLL: Please choose all applicable choices when taking the poll. And choose one of the last two for sure.It won't let me change the font size...

Ok, we've hijacked the bullet thread long enough. We need a wind read'n thread all it's own.

Facts as we know them:

I do not believe in wind reading at 1000 yards for BR.
Wind reading at 1000 yards for BR is accepted by most BR shooters I know, to be somewhere between difficult to impossible.
Many shooters who have shot 1K BR for 30 years, do not believe there is anything to read.

Ok, so lets say Ole 4Mesh is all wet behind the ears and simply doesn't understand. Fine. I might even make that a choice on the poll! Lol. 4Mesh likes to Bs and lies to shooters in hopes to make them shoot worse so he can win more. Whatever.

I like this approach.

4Mesh thinks there is too many differing definitions of "Wind Reading" for anyone to agree upon. That is the one I'm going to concentrate on.

I WANT TO KNOW what YOU think when someone says they "Read Wind" at 1000 yards. And I'll be the first to say what I think.


I think any combinations of the following.
A: I think the person is touched in the head.
B: I think the person is a shooter with good, well prepared stuff who wins or shoots well from time to time, and gets some sick pleasure out of treating less informed, perhaps shooters who are new or even ignorant of shooting, as inferior.
C: I think some people have guns that are so good, they win occasionally when they do things that are unorthodox by my standards, and actually believe they are reading wind, when in truth, the gun wins in spite of their best efforts.
D: I think that entire groups of people attempt to wind read, and all shoot bigger because of it. I've seen some pretty big shoot'n in F-Class, on days I didn't think there was anything to hold for.

My opinion of what Wind Reading is:
A person holds during a group to help a score, admittedly forfeiting group, and attempting to win by taking their chances on a good guess in bad conditions.
A person waiting till there is what they feel is a favorable condition for them to run a string in, and again, forfeiting score for it, hoping for a better group (in bad conditions).

However, what I THINK people believe Wind reading is, when they say they wind read is this. I think they actually believe they can help both group and score, by guessing where that next bullet is going to go. I say, no way, no way... no way... (being nice there)

So, as it applies to 1000 yard BR, I will use Heavy guns of which I am familiar as my basis for opinion. I have seen probably 20 different guns, capable on any given day of shooting in the 3's or 4's for 10 shots. When I say, any given day, I mean, give that thing conditions and it WILL deliver. They are out there. Now, I have seen guns of this nature shoot bigger'n hell in bad conditions. That would be what I call, "Switching Winds".

My own gun that I call a legitimate 4" gun, agged in the 5's. I don't think it was an accident. Fwiw, that wasn't good enough. So, how can I adjust shot to shot and make that gun shoot smaller? Can I use that gun as an indicator of what conditions are by looking at the target and plot. I say yes. This gun clustered consecutive shots so small so many times, I pretty much think if there was 2" of shot to shot change, something bad was going on. I shot 10 shot targets with that thing that no two consecutive shots were an inch apart. Now, over 6/10ths of a mile, how am I supposed to make that gun shoot smaller? Or, score better?

Jerry says at Sacremento, "Not unusual to make multi minute adjustments on every shot". So, wind change of nearly 20 inches shot to shot. That implies to me, there will at some point be greater than 20" of total dispersion (very possibly WAY greater) and this is being "read". Now, read into what size group? Read to what score? Is this with sighters between every shot? If so, we're not talking about benchrest and you get to "cheat" on every shot if you wish. No matter what, you get to see where they went. In BR, we do not (lest you watch in the scope). Essentially making it just like F-Class but faster.

Now, maybe the sun is behind them all the time when they shoot at Sac and perhaps the sun on the bullet makes it possible to see it going in, then you adjust, and viola, "Wind reading". I would call that a lie, and if it were me, I'd either just keep my mouth shut about it, or call it what it is. See, I have no time for the folks who dream up stories about why they're so wonderful. If ya win, wonderful, congrats. Next...

I'll almost definitely have to edit this cause it's long, and I have to put the poll in later on the next page I guess. Never did this before. I think if it lets me, I'll make it multiple choice.

/Edit
Ok, I tried to add my other items to the poll and the board won't let me. So, this is what we get. We'll go with those 8 and anyone can write-in other opinions.

Also, if you are going to opine on wind reading in other disciplines, please keep it to comments about how it relates to 1K BR, either similarities or differences.

And, if you think you are going to keep me in the dark so I don't go out and learn how to wind read by not posting your secrets, trust me, I'm not going to use any of the suggestions I see to make my groups and scores better. You're safe there. Discuss away.

/Edit again. I deleted the original and I'm going to add more options to the poll, but limit to less items than allow all.

 

[oneflyer]

IF I could see my shot going down range and that's a big IF, how much vertical is in that shot.

Once in a very long while I think I see a change on the range during a relay and hold for a shot or two, and guess what!!! That's where the shot goes.

If you can read the wind and make an adjustment that works, then the wind at your range is NOT "switchy" but predictable for 1000 yards and for a long period of time.

Here's my wind reading procedure-- after the range master has said "cease fire" for the sight in period, I adjust my SureFeed, practice throwing a round into the loading ramp, and when the range master says "commence fire" I hammer them down there as fast as possible. Hopefully that group is not in the 5 ring.

 

[4Mesh]

Since I did mention that definitions differ and I'd like to know people definitions, let's do this.

If you believe wind reading is possible, give me an example of what you feel CAN be done. For example.

Let's say, we are talking about the last shot of a 10 shot group. Nine shots are now downrange, and since we are talking about benchrest, let's say for the sake of our discussion that the shooter does not know where they are. Perhaps there's some deity out there who does know, but I think it's safe to say most of us would not bet our lives on the location.

Now, lets say that shot #9 is dead center of a 5" group. So, we assume the gun is centered back up as well as it can be. There is a 12" change for shot #10. You have 2.5" of leeway for your guess and the 12" change would result in a 14.5" group if you should not decide to adjust. Depending on where that change goes, there is a good chance that almost any decision would make that group worse, so, my question is:

What percentage of the time do you think an expert wind reader would choose to adjust that 10th shot and result in a better than 14.5" group?

If my example is not a good one, please provide one that is.

If you feel there are ranges where wind is only substantially to effect in one plane (side to side), please mention that. I have never seen one, but if they exist, that's certainly easier to read than one where there's 360deg of possibility.

 

[milanuk]

If the wind completely changes, say goes from a steady right to left as indicated by mirage or flags or trees or whatever, to a boil, and you don't have sufficient time to wait out the change and hope your preferred condition comes back... what do you do? Hold the same as you did for the last however-many shots, or hold off? If you 'hold off', how is that not 'reading the wind'? Granted it works to varying degrees (nobody gets it right all the time, in my experience) but when its either that or not fire the last shot... what else can you do?

Is it beyond imagination that some people, instead of waiting for the perfect conditions to come around and fire their record shots bang-bang-bang-bang-bang, rather practice looking for and shooting in different, and assigning values to them - in effect building up a mental library of images of cause-n-effect scenarios at various ranges?

I would tend to agree that the *smallest* groups overall are probably going to be at those ranges and on those days where you don't have to do all that fiddling about, and the guns can perform to their fullest. Since the real world rarely seems to bless me with conditions like that... I don't see any other option than to learn to deal with what I'm handed. I'm one of those who would rather shoot when the conditions are really nasty out - where the last nth degree of ultimate mechanical accuracy matters a little less than staying on top of the conditions.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[4Mesh]

Monte,

You sorta answered with questions.

I guess the real point is not, "what would I do" but, what would you do to be competitive against what the best of the BR guns are doing. Again, the poll and thread deal with attempting to win at BR, and I'm talking about at 1K, typical group and score on one target type of rules. And I'll include with that, doing a personal best, maybe even just plain coming away with something you considered a success and not a failure.

Your solution you provide is a generality the way I see it. Here's some of the things I've heard people say in the past that I at least thought they were being scientific (to a degree). Things like, "I'll only hold for 1 scoring ring" or, "I only hold in the middle of a group if my last sighter was outside the 8 ring", or whatever. I"m asking for someone (or many people) to quantify what they mean by adjusting for wind. What size groups are we talking about. Are we talking about only attempting to save score on a bad day, or are we talking about this being an every day practice.

I may fire up Autocad here and draw my example above, and then show some statistics on what the chances are of not making that 5" group worse with a guess. I think it'll be enlightening.

 

[milanuk]

Problem is... while I do have a deep interest in the subject at hand, I don't shoot 1k BR as its a long drive to the nearest range that holds those sort of matches. I do shoot F-Class with some degree of success... so do my opinions count?

I will say that I can imagine it being far easier to learn to read the wind under a match format where you get feedback on every shot. Firing your shots down range basically 'blind' and then deciding how much to hold off for a visible condition change for the last shot would make it difficult to make even an educated guess... but coming from my vantage point where I *do* get to put cause (visible wind + my hold) and effect (shot impact vs. point of aim) together, I don't see how a person could not read the wind if they wanted to stay in the middle (the only metric I really care about: staying withing the 1/2 moa X-ring or 1 moa 10 ring as much as physically possible).

 

[Charles E]

I imagine I'm going to reply with generalities too. Or maybe tell a story, sometimes that's a better way to make a point you can't quantify.

At one level, it is trivially true that all 1K BR shooters read the wind and hold off for it. You've got seven shots downrange. You see the mirage pick up. The flags pick up. What are you going to do, say "Oh Well," put the sight in the center of the target, and pull the trigger?

When I shoot short range BR, I read the wind and hold off all the time. When I do that, I do it expecting to win. I either know where the bullet is going to go, or I don't shoot (occasionally I'm wrong, but I still believe the general "I know where it is going to go"). I don't usually shoot a sighter. Maybe if they call 20 seconds and the wind is the reverse of what I've been shooting, I shoot a sighter. But then I'm not trying to win on that target, I'm trying not to lose, so I can make up a small mistake on the next target. Big difference.

When I "read the wind" at 1K, it is always "trying not to lose." I don't know exactly where the bullet is going. I just know what's in the first paragraph -- the mirage and flags showed a big pickup. Gotta do something.

Now Highpower shooters have an advantage here. Like the short-range benchresters, they have put a lot of rounds downrange and gotten feedback. The target is pulled, spotted, and run back up. You get to see what happened with each shot. Memory is not strained. I would imagine over time, your confidence and skill in wind reading and holding off grows. Either that or you're dumber than dirt.

So, we should all take five years off & shoot F-class, right? We'd come back to BR better shooters. Maybe.

In Australia the 1K benchrest community has a schism. One group shoots it like we do in the States: Sighter period, then go to record, and the target stays up til you're done. The other group shoots like highpowder. Pull & mark the target after each shot. ALL THIS IS BENCHREST, except for the course of fire.

Guess which group has all the small group/high score records? Yup. The "shoot fast" crowd. Now there is no question if we had more experience about where our shots were going, we'd be better shooters, in some ideal world. But in the 2-target agg of IBS and Pennsylvania Nationals, some relays just aren't going to have to go through that. People drawing those relays will run and gun, and win.

Life's short, my friend. If you want to be the best possible 1K benchrest shooter, by all means shoot a lot of highpower. You'll wind up reading the wind better. The cost in time and dollars will be high. I believe a better barrel and better bullets will have a more *efficient* payback.

* * *

Actually, now that the F-class target is down around the BR target (it is, isn't it?), we can get some data. If the scoring rings are the same, we'll find out who shoots higher scores. Of course not at the same match. But over time, it should become apparent.

Edit:

Ah, another post while I was writing

the only metric I really care about: staying withing the 1/2 moa X-ring or 1 moa 10 ring

Well, it's not that close. The X-ring in BR is 3 inches, the 10-ring 7 inches. That's a fair bit smaller. A lot of 95 would be 100s.

But I agree about the feedback value of spotted shots.

Phil: I filled out the poll, but I'm not happy with it. I see you don't believe in wind reading for 1K BR. So, the mirage shows a strong pick up, the flags show a strong pick up, and the roof just blew off the firing line. You gonna put the sight in the center & hope? I'm gonna hold off about 15 feet and hope. Guess that makes me a believer?

 

[vinny]

I'm confused!

 

[4Mesh]

So, do my opinions count

Well, no, not really! Lol

Ok, heres the thing. Your shooting format and shot cadence is not what it is in benchrest. In Br, We get a sighter period, then we are told to go stick 10 downrange. In F-Class, You get feedback on every shot, and you have no way TO run a string downrange. Unless something has changed since I shot F-Class (been a few years), you automatically have a person spot the shot after every one. So, there's a good 15 second wait between shots, and if shooting 10, there's a minimum of 2.5 minutes, just with the target down. A typical record string at a match where I shot would not last 50-60 seconds, or if it did, most of the shooters were done and only a few would be left. Usually one.

Those sets of conditions are so different, there's no comparing them.

Next, you do not shoot for group. BR does. If I shoot BR, I get 2 ways to win on one target. I can win for group and be the group winner, I can win for both group and score to be the group winner, and I can loose for group but still win for score. But, I am being scored for my season on both results. So, shooting just small groups but bad scores is not desirable. And, shooting big groups in the center is not really so good either.

At the range where I shot, I don't remember how many years it has been since you could agg 6.000" and win. You either agg in the 5's or say goodnight. At the range out in MT, now you have to agg in the 4's. I"m not sure if you can get a grasp on how small 4's and 5's for an agg is, but that is like an order of magnitude different than what you'd be used to in F-Class. So my point is, making adjustments due to wind, to improve on that is, IN my opinion, impossible. Furthermore, a typical 6 match score agg is way solidly in the high 90's, now to improve on that you'd be talking about consistently being able to adjust for wind, roughly an inch.

I will say that I can imagine it being far easier to learn to read the wind under a match format where you get feedback on every shot.

In benchrest (at ranges with pits), we have a sighter period. Even where there is no pits, you aim at an impact area. The pits would be more closely related to what you are used to. Impact is more like shooting point blank br. Either way, we also get feedback during a time where we can shoot as much as we like to get centered up. Nobody yet has figured out how to do it all the time. If someone is still holding back, now'd be a good time to speak up. In all my years of shooting, I have shot with plenty of people who said they read wind. My guns evidently read wind real good, cause I don't read wind, yet, I have yet to see a person who said they read wind, read it as good as my guns. When my guns sucked,so did my scores. When my guns shot awesome, my scores were much better. When conditions were really bad and I made a lucky guess, I might win a relay or not, but, more often than not, I wasn't happy, win loose or draw. Ugly = ugly.

The long and short of it though is, your situation is different, and you are not going to possibly loose your season over a big group, where in my case, that is true all the time. Shoot a 15" group, and pretty much, you are done for the year. You are in the hunt for the 6 match. Forget the 10. Forget soty, etc

 

[4Mesh]

Phil: I filled out the poll, but I'm not happy with it. I see you don't believe in wind reading for 1K BR. So, the mirage shows a strong pick up, the flags show a strong pick up, and the roof just blew off the firing line. You gonna put the sight in the center & hope? I'm gonna hold off about 15 feet and hope. Guess that makes me a believer?

Yup, that makes you a believer, but to my recollection, the only believer who has qualified what they believe. I'm still waiting for more opinions.

How far would you consider it safe to hold in a situation like you describe? Would you take that chance if you were leading your clubs season aggs at match 8?

I will aim in the center, pull the trigger and trust my gun. If I am holding, it is due to the last sighters being somewhere other than the center (most of the time). I do not click changes, I hold. It is not because of wind or seeing something unquantified. A spotter was not where I expected it to be and I think it justifies a hold. Others would click to the center of the impact, but, same thing just different method.

As for this poll thing, I wish someone had rights to change the board options and allow people to change their vote. Many did not vote for more than one choice. Many didn't even say if they believe or not. I don't see how to make an edit to that, and sadly, that means anyone who clicked incorrectly, is now hosed. I think it is fixable but must be a super admin. Know any of them Charles?

 

[4Mesh]

Charles, funny story for ya.

1st match of the season, group shootoff, and clearly, nothing to loose here.

Sit down at the line, shoot sighters, things are ok, typical 2pm conditions.

Commence fire. Things are rather calm (considering). Start shooting. Wind begins picking up dramatically. Ok, I'm at shot #8 and I'm convinced, this is really really bad, omg, what to do. I'm sending a string at typical pace, and I figure, that's around 30 seconds max. By shot 10, The spinners that were not turning are now near being ripped out of the ground. Even they are bending over right in front of the benches, I can hear them over the guns. I am convinced this group is strung all across the target, and I have a 20" group already, who really cares, it's a group shootoff, hold left an extra 6", my gun is good, it'll be fine, last target was a 4.0-100, In this, that 6" just might be enough.

Yep, it was enough. That shot was left 6" and in the 10 ring. Too bad this is the group shootoff. Other 9 shots are 6", I had the line covered by a mile. Now lost the shootoff due to what I have proven to myself time and time again is a bad choice.

Now, Maybe I just really suck at reading wind, but I'd suggest then I must have had really good guns cause I never had much trouble scoring.

 

[4Mesh]

How do I vote in a poll and view the results?

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Taken from the FAQ's

I know of other V-Bulletin boards where votes can be edited. I guess that's not typical... sucks.

 

[Charles E]

How far would you consider it safe to hold in a situation like you describe? Would you take that chance if you were leading your clubs season aggs at match 8?

Well, I only remember the roof being in danger at the 1999 Nats at Virgina, when the hurricane was offshore. It was a portable top, and we were hanging on it . . .

But to be serious, I would have tried things out in the sighter period. I'll hold that much. I was never leading after match 8, except the year I was leading after match 9 (LG), and for match 10, apparently instead of dropping 54 grains of powder for the 6.5/06, I dropped 45. First shot in the sighter period was about 10 feet low. Took me long time to get on target, Gun shot terrible, too. Pulled the leftover rounds after, and said "oops." Took me from first to third for the year. And no, I've never done that again.

I think it is fixable but must be a super admin. Know any of them Charles?

Wilbur's words. All I can do is delete spam.

 

[milanuk]

Things are rather calm (considering). Start shooting. Wind begins picking up dramatically. Ok, I'm at shot #8 and I'm convinced, this is really really bad, omg, what to do. I'm sending a string at typical pace, and I figure, that's around 30 seconds max. By shot 10, The spinners that were not turning are now near being ripped out of the ground. Even they are bending over right in front of the benches, I can hear them over the guns. I am convinced this group is strung all across the target, and I have a 20" group already, who really cares, it's a group shootoff, hold left an extra 6", my gun is good, it'll be fine, last target was a 4.0-100, In this, that 6" just might be enough.

Yep, it was enough. That shot was left 6" and in the 10 ring. Too bad this is the group shootoff. Other 9 shots are 6", I had the line covered by a mile. Now lost the shootoff due to what I have proven to myself time and time again is a bad choice.

If you had to guess, the wind speed went from what to what - 0-5mph to 15-20 or more, in less than 30 seconds. And your first nine shots, fired during that pickup, went into a 6" group @ 1000yds, all using the exact same hold, is that correct?

Now, Maybe I just really suck at reading wind, but I'd suggest then I must have had really good guns cause I never had much trouble scoring.

What kind of cartridge are you shooting?!? Apparently something with wheels and a trailer hitch attached?

Guess I'm used to more... anemic... calibers, because the above change should have put anything I pull the trigger on OFF THE PAPER.

 

[4Mesh]

If you had to guess, the wind speed went from what to what - 0-5mph to 15-20 or more, in less than 30 seconds. And your first nine shots, fired during that pickup, went into a 6" group @ 1000yds, all using the exact same hold, is that correct?

Correct. Same hold. Would have continued had I not altered it by stupidity.

Forcing me to guess. I would have guessed, from 0 at commence fire to 30+, perhaps 40 mph by strings end. Incredible change at the bench, none appreciable at the target. Actually, I remember this cause I used that target the other day as masking on my house (painting). Remembered it well

What kind of cartridge are you shooting?!? Apparently something with wheels and a trailer hitch attached?

300WSM, 210 gn Berger VLD @ roughly 2850fps or thereabouts. Might have been higher that week for all I know but I doubt it. Higher would be 2870 or 2880.

Guess I'm used to more... anemic... calibers, because the above change should have put anything I pull the trigger on OFF THE PAPER.

Well, I held for it, so I guess I believed it then too. And I did that knowing from the past that it was the wrong thing to do. Hey, live and learn. Had that not been a shootoff, I will guarantee you I would never have moved mid-string. Never.

I also remember a relay where, with no appreciable signs at the bench, there was a 3' change during the sighter period at the 30 second mark. I adjusted for the whole 3', and the next shot at 15 seconds was worse yet, even more the same way. I adjusted for some of that but not all, as I had to believe it would come back partway by strings end. It did not, it got worse, and I was out of the scoring rings with the record string. This all in a period of roughly 1 minute, sighters and records both. There's 7, possibly 8 or 9 feet of change in a minute. No visible clues I could see (and neither did anyone else). Had 4 100 shooting guns in that relay shoot 20's.

 

[Dog-duster]

4mesh, I have a lot of things in mind and I hope I write them before I forget too much. I can agree with some of the points you made but I have personally seen 2 specific guys here in CO at 1K BR IBS who can shoot slow consistently in tough winds and win relays with great consistency. I'm not here to mention their names because they shouldn't have to defend their shooting technique for my opinion. One shoots a 6X47 and the other shoots a primarily a Dasher and a 6X47. There are also guys here who can shoot well and win relays using the running technique. I personally try to shoot fast because I feel that I don't have best the handle on what the wind is doing to my POI I think it is way to general to say that wind reading doesn't work. Charles has an excellent point about seeing a big change midway through the group. It just seems crazy that a guy would only hold center and when he didn't win would be cursing his gun, the evil wind, or his slow hands for not winning. At some level we all have to steer the rifle and use it to influence our shot placement and win for the conditions we're in. I agree a gun just flat out has to shoot very well to win on any regular basis but that doesn't just negate the shooter's responsibility to steer. 4mesh, do you feel confident in flipping down scope covers for your record string if your gun tracks well? I'm not saying you don't shoot well but nothing is so black and white when your target is 5/8 of a mile away and there's more than a second of flight time.

I think something that we should all consider is that wind is different at EVERY range and it would be easier to say that wind reading is garbage if there were data to support the claim. My idea for this would be to have an average wind speed throughout a season with the readings only measured during the day's RECORD fire periods. Each range would have a measurement number to compare to others. Another component to consider would be to avg. in somehow the directional value of the wind for that period. It would actually give a better indication of what shooters are up against at their home ranges. I do not want to give the impression here that we have the toughest winds here because I have only shot at Iowa for the '09 Nats other than shooting here. Until I get to travel more around the country and shoot some new places I can only write about what I've seen.

I understand that shooting a 15" group is tough on a guy's 6 target or 10 target agg but do we only shoot for season aggs? I feel that agg records reflect shooters who shoot consistently great groups but I wouldn't let a bad group keep me from going to next month's match because it ruined my 6 or 10 target agg. Our format here in CO makes it tougher for us to earn SOY points because we shoot a 3 target agg for each relay. Usually 10 shooters per relay is about the high avg turnout we get. If you miss the wind here kinda wrecks your day if you DQ and we have 3 chances per match to do that and we only shoot one match per month. While I like the extra shooting it gives us it makes our ruler tougher to compare to other clubs setups.

I just think that there is merit to each approach and everyone has to learn (usually the hard way) which works for them. I apologize for my long-worded response but I think there's a lot more to shooting high scores and small groups than using one approach all the time, every place and the key is finding the balance.

Nate

 

[milanuk]

Incredible change at the bench, none appreciable at the target.

Not exactly what I would consider a normal example of why not to hold off. The gun/load isn't quite the bazooka I expected... but I have seen a very similar combination mow through condition changes that sent my little 6 Dasher flying off in the tulies...

I also remember a relay where, with no appreciable signs at the bench, there was a 3' change <snip> There's 7, possibly 8 or 9 feet of change in a minute.

That sounds a little closer to what I'm used to with the nasty switching head wind at our nearest 1k range.

No visible clues I could see (and neither did anyone else).

One point I'm not entirely clear on, and granted it may vary from range to range... do you guys (in general) use personal wind flags, or are there range wind flags hoisted up where they are well clear of the turbulence and interference of the ground... and closer to where the bullets actually fly?

Do you (in general) use your spotting scope focused back closer to the apogee of the trajectory (or on a specific terrain feature like a cut in the tree line along the flight path) so you can 'see' the mirage and thus what the wind is doing at that point of the bullet flight, or do you just leave it focused in on the target trying to see the bullet holes?

 

[a.JR]

Hi all , This is a pic of the last target shot by me at a recent 1000yd Benchrest match, I held in 4 different spots in the white during the string.. We have had a particularly bad run of weather conditions this year and at no time in the last ten targets have i been able to completely Run all 10 shots .. I have done it in multiple bursts with the same hold (approx 30 secs)/ held in multiple areas in the white square while still shooting as fast as i can(App 45 secs) and just picked away App 60 secs ,all shot in the traditional way(blind).. I did what ever i thought it would take to get the best result in those conditions offered .Did i make errors, damb straight . Is this *wind reading*?, i don't know .. What i do know is those from F'class/TR and the new breed of Aus 1k shooters that want to see where their last record shot went say that i'm not a *wind readers* petute ,i'm just a machine gunner..That may well be but imo it's just a different way type of wind reading and when it comes down to it you only have the compare the Aggs for score and for group to see which way is the best ..JR..Jeff Rogers

 

[4Mesh]

4mesh, do you feel confident in flipping down scope covers for your record string if your gun tracks well?

Honestly Nate, no, but that's cause it doesn't track well enough, and because it needs 2 or 3 adjustments during every record string, even if it does track. All of my guns string bullets. It isn't much, but they do not shoot shot 10 where shot 1 went. I usually make about 3, 3/4" adjustments during a record string.

My guns are not heavy, so, they tend to upset in the bags ever so slightly. If that were not the case, and if I wasn't worried about stringing down the paper, I would have no problem with shooting without looking. Fact is though, I do not see any speed advantage doing that, so not looking is of no benefit that I can see. I see no reason in giving up that piece of information, even if it didn't normally mean something. Sorta like not dotting the i's and crossing the t's to me.

Thanks for the long winded post.

So far, I see only one person willing to attempt to quantify these holds, and that was Charles E. Now, if I am reading his response correctly, he's basically saying he lets the sighter period determine the size of hold he's willing to go should things roll downhill. Example, if he sees a foot of change in the sighters, he's willing to hold (up to) that if he sees signs that make him believe it's time to hold.

From the poll results, it appears that everyones perception of what wind reading means, is pretty much the same. We all agree, the person thinks they can better their groups/scores by holding. Not that they can, but we believe that's what they are implying anyhow. It's nice to know we all agree on something.

If I'm forced to read into the results, my opinion would be that while most think it possible to help a target by holding, none believe it possible to make 1" adjustments, and thus, since 5" aggs are the order of the day, I conclude that none believe you can win aggs holding for wind. The very idea of taking the time to look at conditions puts your record string at such a pace that it is seriously unlikely you can shoot small enough to shoot a top competitive agg, thus, I conclude that for group shooting, holding is not applicable. (for small groups). At the point where groups hit 15", I have no interest in shooting, so hold or no hold, that's meaningless to me, even if it could help. That has no chance of winning in anything I ever competed in. May as well save the bullets as shoot 15" and win a relay.

I also get the impression that (from the results), people think of holds in one dimension. Side to side. At every range I've ever shot at, vertical movements can be easily a foot for an entire 10 shot string. Consider this. If the group goes vertical, either up OR down, no matter what adjustment you make in this one dimensional hold area, that adjustment makes the target worse. You are adjusting in the wrong plane, you have a 100% chance of making that target worse, yet, with this being commonplace at the ranges I shoot, there's folks who shoot at ranges tougher than that and pick correctly more often than not. Hmmm, food for thought.

 

[4Mesh]

Jeff,

Those holds you say, all in the patch? Went from gut feel? First, do you get a plot sheet so you know which shots went where? (knowing if it helped or hurt). Next, In your opinion, is that group bigger or small than it would have been had you not held?

One point I'm not entirely clear on, and granted it may vary from range to range... do you guys (in general) use personal wind flags, or are there range wind flags hoisted up where they are well clear of the turbulence and interference of the ground... and closer to where the bullets actually fly?

Do you (in general) use your spotting scope focused back closer to the apogee of the trajectory (or on a specific terrain feature like a cut in the tree line along the flight path) so you can 'see' the mirage and thus what the wind is doing at that point of the bullet flight, or do you just leave it focused in on the target trying to see the bullet holes?

At Williamsport, there are range flags only. Also some spinners right in front of the benches. Your bullets are anywhere from 20 to 100 feet above the ground (or water) and nowhere even close to any flags. When on the BoD, I argued against buying flags for the range citing it as a waste of money. They are commonly accepted as worthless there, but they're pretty I guess. Some are on wires, but easily 30 to 50' or more below the bullets, a complete waste of time.

Nobody that I know of in Br uses a spotting scope while shooting. Any reference you've seen to spotting scopes is strictly someone talking about watching someone else, and coaching is not allowed. Some folks look in the riflescope I guess, but if they are watching flags, they are loosing time. I'd say 90% of those who watch for something, watch till it's time to run a string, then take their chances running and gunning.