Proposed IBS AR Rules

M

M. E. Bandy

Guest
1. This is not Score Benchresr or anything close to it. It is setting up an AR Match all together different rules at Sore BR Matches with an entirely different set of rules. It will not entice more BR shooters nor expose them to the game. If they want to come shoot Score, then they should shoot by the same BR RULES.
2. No Bipods, use rests.
3. No semiautomatic fire, Why do you need 2 loaded 10 round Clips - use single shot adaptors.
4. No flashhiders or muzzlebreaks.
5. Brass catchers required.
6. Bolts out rule would apply, as well bolts insertion rule would apply.

This whole proposal would be a Match Director's Nightmare.

Lets see what the forum discussion will be about these new rules proposal. Probably should cause a lively discussion that I hope will stay civil and clean.

MEB
 
MEB,

I am not going to argue each of your points, most of which I disagree with, however, the rules are being finalized by Harley Baker's ad hoc committee. I assume you have seen the draft rules on the IBS web site? Let me remind you why we are doing this:

--It furthers IBS mission of fostering extreme rifle accuracy.
--Introduces new shooters to bench rest shooting and adds new IBS members.
--IBS may become the primary vehicle to showcase the ultimate accuracy of "black rifles".
--The AR rifle community is an extraordinarily large and active group that should not be
ignored.
--New shooters at the matches may gravitate to traditional BR rifles.
--Infuse the IBS and IBS-matches with new enthusiasm.
--Raise the profile of benchrest shooting amongst other serious riflemen.

Also, the experience with using AR rifles in competition is long and extensive in NRA, IPSC, and other sanctioning bodies. It is an experiment that may, or may not work. For the expansion of our sport, let's keep an open mind. Most of the shooters I talked to at the IBS Annual Meeting agreed that it is something that should be tried.

Jeff Stover
IBS President
 
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M. E. Bandy said:
It will not entice more BR shooters nor expose them to the game.
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Elaborate on this please.

If my trips to the range have any indication then the vast majority of the shooting public has no idea what BR shooting is. I spend half of the time answering questions about my rifle and setup.

When I went to my first match I was shocked that I was the youngest (I'm 29) on the line and next youngest person was at least ten years older than me. If this sport has any hope of growing then there has to be an infusion of new blood coming in and that will often entail younger blood as well. AR shooters represent a much larger segment of the Shooting Industry pie. Take SHOT show for example. Its a nice market to cater to if you want to increase the number of people interested in precision shooting.

I applaud any organization that has the balls to think outside of the box instead in staying with the status quo.
 
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M. E. Bandy said:
1. This is not Score Benchresr or anything close to it. It is setting up an AR Match all together different rules at Sore BR Matches with an entirely different set of rules. It will not entice more BR shooters nor expose them to the game. If they want to come shoot Score, then they should shoot by the same BR RULES.

...

This whole proposal would be a Match Director's Nightmare.
...

MEB
Click to expand...

How does creating an 'AR match' within / parallel to BR matches not expose them to the 'game'? Shooters are shooters are they not? ? Or is the BR side too elite for AR types?

-pd
 
Meb

What are you trying to say in your post??. I would guess that you believe that allowing AR's to compete at a Registered Benchrest Match is a bad idea........jackie
 
Why on earth would you make an AR conform to the same rules as a BR rifle? Two totaly different platforms.
 
I applaud the IBS for taking the steps to try something new. The Benchrest fraternity is getting smaller by the year and there is very little new blood(Young Guys) willing to dedicate the expense of aquiring all the gear needed to compete & raise a family. If you open your mind to the fact that the black guns are extremly accurate and if they are willing to come give it a try why not give them the opportunity. I personally hope this works out, because it can be an example to other organizations about how to get new shooters involved. Remember "The Mind Is Like a Parachute It works Best When It's Open"! When all else fails think outside of the box that's what the IBS has done.
 
As I've said before....I think it is up to existing shooters to not only accept the AR shooters, but to encourage them, to make it work. Our sport is made up of middle aged men that are set in their ways and don't always accept change very well.(not all, but alot) There is a huge group of shooters that don't "get" our game, but shoot AR rifles. A fair percentage of them appreciate accuracy....and a fair percent just want to spray and pray. We need to embrace the accuracy minded shooters of any type gun and welcome them with open arms instead of tolerate them. So what if their gun doesn't look like ours? Maybe they will get caught by the accuracy bug and advance to another level of accuracy and guns. I have no desire to shoot two guns at a match but will shoot some form of AR where it's allowed and there are others interested in our sport doing so to help fill a class. If nobody else shows up with an AR, I'll leave mine in my vehicle and shoot as normal. Lets just not sweep it under the rug just yet. If given some time, it just may grow our numbers and make our ranges more sustainable. JMHO.---Mike Ezell:)
 
Can't agree more with what Mike said about folks being set in their ways and not "getting" this sport. It IS our responsibility to promote this sport in order for it to grow, and to remain steadfast in our belief that this is a great sport with great people in it.
I am in a club with high power and small bore position shooters who like to shoot a lot of rounds in a short period of time, and would like nothing better than to have a firing line absent of benches. Each time I hear about how slow the pace is, or how it's not about the shooter and all about the equipment, or that they have a gun that can shoot .2's all day, I just smile real big, offer them to come down and shoot on the house, and see how much fun they have.

What is the worst that can happen by introducing the AR's into competition...a bolt gun gets beaten by a gas gun. They might just come back for more.

Mike
 
The Purpose of the thread was to start an intelligent, gentlemanly discussion.


to Jeff: I think that it might foster some more BR Shooters. I think that Harley Baker & Co., Inc. should try to adhere to the current rules as possible.

I would like to see some discussion as to how you could make an AR accurate enough to compete, ie, 30 PPC and 30 BR. I spent a good deal of effort, time, and not the least - MONEY - sometime ago and was not pleased with the results.

MEB
 
AR Benchrest

I think opening up benchrest shooting to AR shooters is great - why not?

Heck we've been catering to "off the bench" AR-15 shooting for a while and have worked up products and enhancements to AR's for that type of shooting. We even have a webpage on it at:

http://www.6mmar.com/Benchrest_AR.html

Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com


FullRifleOffBench.jpg
 
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I'm on the ad hoc AR committee with Harley. I'm also an AR owner. In addition to the IBS goals Jeff mentioned, we do want to keep within the current IBS rules as much as possible.

Doc - The AR will be in it's own class just like VFS is one class and Hunter is another. VFS and Hunter shoot side-by-side, but not against each other. A heavy barrel AR, shooting varmint loads will shoot about 1" without too much trouble. I haven't had time to see just how much better it will do. However, I am going to give it a try.

I sure hope that all the clubs will give it a try this year.

Adrian
 
Sorry about the lack of clarity in my post about the bolt guns getting beaten by the AR's. I do realize they will be in their own class, but when one of their scores is higher than some of the VFS class scores it may just turn some heads.

I look forward to the new class, and I think it is great that the IBS is reaching beyond the comfortable status quo. I had actually included them in my "factory" class last year, but with a dedicated category it may bring more interest.

Keep up the good work.
 
rcw3 said:
I think opening up benchrest shooting to AR shooters is great - why not?

Heck we've been catering to "off the bench" AR-15 shooting for a while and have worked up products and enhancements to AR's for that type of shooting. We even have a webpage on it at:

http://www.6mmar.com/Benchrest_AR.html

Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com


FullRifleOffBench.jpg
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robert do know whaqt he talks about....

and anyone else that has not read, can do a search on the work i have done with three ar's....a 223, a 308win br and a 6pp that was rechambered to 6mm beggs on monday.

mike in co
 
Honestly, I'm looking forward to it.

My son and I started shooting BR this year and we've learned a lot, met lots of great folks and shared some good times.

He's really excited about getting to shoot his Bushmaster and if it keeps him interested, I'm all for it.

As you all know, there are plenty of folks on other forums who don't get BR. If they come out and see it by means of bringing their rifles out for a go, you never know how they might get interested after actually seeing what we do. And I'm sure plenty of us will learn new things about how accurate the Stoner rifles can be.

You never know, we may be able to apply certain newfound tricks across the breeds. I'm sure Formula One could learn tricks from NASCAR and vice versa. How can learning about new forms of accuracy be anything but good?
 
How about a scoring plug as is used in AGBR where the 17 cal plug has a 22 cal top. This eliminates the big bore advantage. Or use worst edge scoring where everybody would want a 22 or even a 17.

I am also disappointed in not allowing other military autoloaders. Eliminate the gas system on most of them and they could possibly give an AR a run for the money given equal bbls and chambers.
 
crb said:
How about a scoring plug as is used in AGBR where the 17 cal plug has a 22 cal top. This eliminates the big bore advantage. Or use worst edge scoring where everybody would want a 22 or even a 17.

I am also disappointed in not allowing other military autoloaders. Eliminate the gas system on most of them and they could possibly give an AR a run for the money given equal bbls and chambers.
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you dont do it in BENCHREST, why do it in ar br ?
you dont do it in SCORE benchrest, why do it in ar br ?
pick your caliber, and take your chances......like any real shooting sport.

having said that, and being the owner of a 6mm beggs and a 308 win br in ar platforms. i WOULD support two classes.....223/5.56 and any other caliber.


and no those other rifles dont come close to the abilities of the ar platform.


mike in co
 
Mike,
The whole point in allowing AR's is PROGRESS. CF BR is basically stagnant. It would be great if the 'AR' class rules were really wide open. One piece rests, no wgt limit, few restrictions on the rifle.

At first I thought the AGBR scoring plug was bogus but after using it to score an actual match I saw it's merit. Everybody is on a level playing field. That is EXACTLY what rules makers should be striving for. That is exactly what the majority of the shooters want. The only ones that don't want it are those with the skills, money or time to create a machinery advantage for themselves [ ie, you and me ]. Nobody loves gray areas of the rules more than I do but since I am also involved in making the rules for matches I also love to eliminate gray areas.

The IBS hopes to attract serious AR shooters but how many will be willing to fund a second upper just for shooting score BR ? As for your proposal for 2 classes :

You don't do it in BR why do it in AR BR ?????

Nobody [ not even you :rolleyes: ] knows the potential of other mil platforms. Because they aren't allowed in US Highpower Matches there has been no development.
 
If this was the year 2000 then all this would be progress. Instead it's 2010 and the orgs are just now allowing these minor tweaks.
 
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