Powder Throwing Secrets

Now that the Powder has Settled

C.L.
Since you stated you have a Jones thrower what is your problem? Jone's is as good as it gets in powder throwers. There are no secrets to throwing powder all you need is a procedure that works for you. There are a few basics that most BR guys do when loading at the Range. First fill your powder bottle full when you start. This sounds basic but powder throwers work better when full. After you have removed the static in your bottle and drop tube make yourself a chart so that you know where your clicks need to be to throw the load you want. Again sounds simple but some don't bother.

Practice throwing powder charges at home and see the range of powder weights you get. Any good thrower should be able to throw plus/minus .1 from where you want to be when throwing powders like 133, 8208, and ball powders. Longer stick powders like 4198, 4350, 3031 and others will never throw within a 1/10 because of the cutting going on. So if you want 28.0 grn of 133 you should be able to throw all loads between 27.9 and 28.1. This type of throwing is what you want for a BR load. I use a CED (Competitive Edge Dynamics) scale that weighs in 1/10's to check my clicks, a simple beam scale works fine too. All this nonsense of weighing in 1/100's is nonsense 1/10's is what BR shooters talk at the Shoots. You asked do shooters weigh each charge at the Shoot I would say NO. Shooters using throwers like a Jones, Bruno, Harrell, Lyman/Culver, Lyman/Jones, Redding and other throwers just throw powder loads trusting their thrower and their technique that they are getting what they need throwing powder. Powder throwing need not be complicate once everything is set-up.

Like I said there are no secrets to powder throwing just procedures that each shooter learns.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Last edited:
Centerfire said:
While using a Harrels try this technique at three levels in your measure. You will need some sort of clean shot glass also. Throw a few charges into the glass and put back into the Harrells. Now throw ten charges into the glass at what ever speed you want, just be consistant. Now pour the powder out into your scale pan. Check the weight. If throwing 28.5 grs see if you have thrown 284,285 or 286 grains total weight. Now put the powder back and do it again.
After this do the same with Harrell 1/2 full and at 1/3 full so you develope just where you want to operate your measure. If you are doing things correctly you will build your confidence that you can throw 10 charges at one time with very little variance. Good Luck
Centerfire
Click to expand...


IMO this perfectly illustrates how one can use the numbers to 'prove' an invalid or completely useless contention......

Without even doing this test I can state with fair certainty that what it will show is, THE LARGER THE SAMPLING, THE 'MORE ACCURATE' YOUR MEASURE!!! Absolutely bass-ackwards from reality.

It's like using "Standard Deviation" to prove something... normalize enough rounds and you can establish a norm even if you're shooting two different rifles! ;) You could show equity between a 22-250 and a 45-70 using SD.......

In reality, ONE tall or short charge will wreck your group, just as ONE fast or slow round will put you into the losers camp.

ONE ROUND, that one round is the one we're after....... :)


(Or at least I'm... opinions vary)


opinionsby




al
 
Technocrats

Centerfire said:
While using a Harrels try this technique at three levels in your measure. You will need some sort of clean shot glass also. Throw a few charges into the glass and put back into the Harrells. Now throw ten charges into the glass at what ever speed you want, just be consistant. Now pour the powder out into your scale pan. Check the weight. If throwing 28.5 grs see if you have thrown 284,285 or 286 grains total weight. Now put the powder back and do it again.
After this do the same with Harrell 1/2 full and at 1/3 full so you develope just where you want to operate your measure. If you are doing things correctly you will build your confidence that you can throw 10 charges at one time with very little variance. Good Luck
Centerfire
Click to expand...

This is an example of the hare and the tortoise race. No matter how many times you run the race the tortoise wins because the hare is all speed no brain.

C'mon guys a powder thrower operates on the gravity feed principle. No matter what measure you use powder drops at the same rate (Newton 101). Whether a Lyman, Harrell, Jones, Bruno, Redding, Hollywood, RCBS or whatever they all dump powder. Difference is some have better adjustments.

This is supposed to be a Competitive BR Forum but most of guys are not BR shooters I can accept that. But commom sense alone should tell some of you that you are blowing smoke on this powder throwing Thread. It a'int that difficult to throw powder and most any thrower I mentioned and ones I left out will do the job. Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Last edited:
Stephen Perry said:
C.L.
Since you stated you have a Jones thrower what is your problem?-- Any good thrower should be able to throw plus/minus .1 --

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Click to expand...

Steve I pulled 2 sentences from your thread that continue to be a problem for me when using a powder measurer alone.
ie: After throwing 10 charges and weighing each seperately their can be .1-.2 gr difference. If one has one case .1-.2 gr lite and then .1-.2 gr heavy their could be a variation from the lite load to the heavy load of potentially .2-.4 gr.. I dont think this is tolerable for group shooting with todays skill level of many competitive shooters.
This is the problem I'm having trouble resolving to my satisfaction.

FYI--I load and shoot at the range (weather permitting) 4-5 days per week shooting 50-75 rounds per day.
My powder bottles are 2# bottles from Hodgen powders, I try to keep them 75% full or better
I have not used dryer sheets but will try in future.
I'm thinking about the reccommendation to placeing groung wire to measurer.
This will probably be my last tip to try.
We all think we are good powder throwers but when weighing multiple charges I dont have a very good passing grade.

Thanks everyone for some good ideas and advice.
I'll just try harder!!!!

CLP
 
Stephen,
Are you saying that all measures are equal when it comes to being able to hold a given tolerance with a given powder, and that the only difference is in the sophistication of the adjustment systems? You might want to run that one by Jerry Hensler. And as far as that part about it being easy to hold +- .1 gr. with 133....Anybody else want to comment on that...someone with a really good electronic scale that has measured some long runs of 133 throws? My guess is that if you count all throws, it would run closer to +-.15.
 
Cl

To be honest CL I don't think most guys at a BR shoot can hold .1 with their throws. For short range BR powder throwing need not be so critical that an extra .1 off the load one is throwing is going to show up in the groups. I don't like to name names but at Visalia last weekend we had 2 HoF shooters both using powder throwers and neither one weighed any loads. I have nothing against weighing powder but in reality few if any check their powder throwing on a scale at the Range, I've been going to BR shoots back to 1977, not much has changed since 77 powder throwers are still being used.

If you load at a short range BR Shoot you will notice that most shooters throw powder from a powder thrower lots of Harrell's, Bruno's, some Jone's, some Redding. What you don't see at a BR shoot is people hand weighing powder using a scale, no 123 scales. In the last couple of years the RCBS Chargemaster has become popular with some some shooters, I say some, last Visalia Shoot last weekend I don't remember seeing a Chargemaster but the shooters that use them weren't there last weekend.

Point is C L most every BR shooter that loads at the Range, and that is probably 98% of us, use a standard powder thower and trust they are throwing consistently good throws. I do check my throws at home and I do get plus or minus .1 grn with either 133 or 322, with my Bruno. I have over the years used a Lyman/Culver, Lyman/Jones, Redding, and now my Bruno thrower. All my throwers give plus or minus .1 grn accuracy with powders like 133 and 322. Only my Belding & Mull will give better throws with any powder I throw that includes powders like 4350 and 4831, my B&M is fragile that's why I leave it at home. I like my Bruno the best because there is an element that it and the Jones thrower share that makes it my most consistent thrower,try and guess. Up or down .1 either way is plenty good for BR. Trouble with most Posters on BR Central is that they are hypothetical shooters and loaders that never make it to a Registered Shoot. They make assumptions of the way shooters load at a BR shoot, they need to go and see for themselves and talk to some of the shooters in the loading area at a BR shoot. CL if you shoot BR you know what I'm saying is true about powder throwers if you don't go a Shoot sometime and judge for yourself what goes go on in the reloading area.
Thanks for your time.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Stephen,
What you sway about the prevalence of thrown charges is very true. I was just taking exception with the parts about measures being the same in regard to ease of being able to hold a tight tolerance with 133. (322 and 8208 are easier in this respect.)Maybe your Bruno measure is better than you realize. I have not tried one of those. I also disagree about what you said about it being easy to hold +-.1 with 133. Speaking of experienced shooters, I believe that Mr. Boyer is now weighing charges, and the last time that I asked, Dennis was. The first one that I saw using a Chargemaster at the range was Walt Berger...all still in the record book I believe. (Yes, I know, they got there throwing charges.) As to the importance of close tolerances in charge weight for short range Benchrest, you might ask your friend Lawrence Weisdorn.
(scroll down)http://www.6mmbr.com/BRschool.html
Having said all of that, I think that if you are telling a new Benchrest shooter that obsessing over small variations in the weight of powder charges should not be his primary focus, I agree completely. I would say that learning to speak wind flag is at the top of the list.
 
C.L. Peterson said:
Whats your SECRET.
How do you get repeatability for each charge?
What are your parameters (limits/tolerance) for each charge you would take to the line and shoot for record under match conditions?
Do you weigh each charge?
What situations/procedures aree to be avoided?

FYI--VV N 133, pulled 8208 and 8208 XBR Powders
Jones powder measurer
Assorted scales

If not your secret whats your procedure/tips/routine.

CLP
Click to expand...

CL,
It sounds like you are inquiring about short range BR?
My advice would be to seek a tune(predominantly a tunable bullet)that would allow you .005 fore and aft bullet to land engagement and two numbers of powder variation and still remain in tune.
The reason that volumetric measures have been and continue to be "effective" is that experienced shooters understand the tune window and stay in the middle of it. If one tenth of a grain of powder or one kernal will make or break your tune,you probably never had one in the first place.
Short range guys understand this as they pound thousands of rounds downrange over very comprehensive flag set-ups.Being able to un-tune ones rifle is just as important as being able to tune it,because it shows one the window.A broad tune window will allow you quite a bit of variation in your powder charge.Don't overlook the forest for the trees.
Joel
 
You folks are the respected experts here, and I am still using two Lyman measures that I started with years ago — never invested in a Harrels. But since I am located near the person who invented the Quick Measure, I visited him and bought one several years ago. It is remarkably consistent. I use the canister model and have adapted it to MEC shotgun loading bottles so that it can be quickly changed to throw different powders.
http://www.quick-measure.com/qm.htm
 
From the Hip

At the 2006 BR School Lawrence and Danny Moscaritolo gave a demonstration of the method they used to pre-load. Lawrence keeps records of what loads worked for him at each Range he shot at. So when he does pre-loads say 133 he has the load set up for that Range. He has tube boxes also that hold a hundred tubes each that he can use for each powder throw.

Boyd, Lawrence is one of the few I know that uses his pre-loading technique. Lawrence liked to pre-load at San Gabriel Range because he was our statistician operating the computer to get our results and not having to load at the Shoot took a burden off him, Lawrence was one our best shooters at San Gabriel.

Boyd I don't have to scroll down 6mmBR.Com article to see the BR School I was the Director of both the 2004 and 2006 San Gabriel BR Schools. If you check I wrote most of the article you are referring too. You are referring to the San Gabriel BR School 2006 aren't you.

I don't live with Tony but I see him at every National I go to. Tony throws powder like everybody else with a powder thrower. Last time I saw him at the Raton Nats in 2006 and the Cactus 2007 he was throwing powder out of a Culver conversion. I don't know where you hear some of the stuff you hear Boyd. How many Nats or Cactus Shoots have you seen Tony loading at? Tony has 125+ HoF points all earned using a powder thrower. Berger now uses a Chargemaster doesn't weigh charges but like Tony he earned all his HoF points using a powder thrower. As far as Dennis I assume you are talking Thornberry he does not weigh charges at the Range. Dennis last weekend was using Bruno thrower throwing 8208 not the new stuff. When he uses 133 he uses his RCBS Chargemaster.

Boyd you act like I don't what I am talking about. How many BR shoots have you shot at in your lifetime, I only remember you shooting 1 shoot at Visalia since I started shooting there in 1994. You talk allot of BR Boyd but I think your info is like Frank Murphy's not from BR Shooting. Frank had every BR magazine and book to write his stuff from, he never shot BR but had all the info. So go on with your powder throwing Thread. Just remember I've been doing the BR thing a long time since 1977.
Good night.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Last edited:
Stephen,
About that memory...you and I have shot at the same match several more times than that, and yes, I was speaking of 133. It may be that if the new 8208 is easier to work with and gives superior or equal results to 133, that Chargemasters will go away and all charges will again be thrown. As to Mr. Boyer, I am sure that you are correct for the dates given. My information is more recent.
Boyd
One thing for sure, this thread has surely been good press for Lester's measures.
 
When loading for the .222, try a cereal bowl of powder, and a tea spoon. Use this against your best measure, and check the difference at the target. Try this with most any small BR case's.
 
133 will be the Powder of Choice

Boyd
The new 8208 has promise but the way 133 has been sold and used since it came out, maybe 15 years now it is far and away the powder of choice for the PPC. Before 133 powders like the different strains of 322, of which old 8208 is one of them, and others like 4198 were dominant in the PPC. I would like to see the new 8208 be available to all of us at an afforable price. So far I have been hearing $160 for 8# of new 8208.

Come out to Visalia next month and shoot with us. I seem to remember you winning an agg the last you shot.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Stephen,
I am beginning to like that memory, but no, just a couple of individual matches, and a few decent placings. I look forward to shooting with you and the rest of the crew, when I get a little less on my plate. BTW I know how hard projects can be, especially when there are major factors that are completely out of one's control, but I have to ask. How is the Angeles BR range coming? Is there still hope? I really wish you and all of the Southern California shooters the best on this one. In any case, kudos for your persistence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top