powder scales question

No bs just the facts

Riverwolf1 said:
I currently have a chargemaster and have always thought about that it might be the best alternative to getting each and every charge so close that it would maybe stop that occasional unexplained flyer that pops up.
However I am not sure weighing is all it is cracked up to be! Why since the advent of weighing versus just throwing a charge haven’t world records been falling? Look at how many world records were just thrown with old powder measures, like old Lymans modified by Homer Culver. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that if in short range BR that once everyone started using a chargemaster be shooting groups that are smaller consistently.
Like Bill Brawand said it’s more reading the flags, gun tune, barrel/action selection etc. that is more likely to create tiny groups and winning aggs.
There are still a lot of shooters that have not embraced using a chargemaster and elect to keep it simple using an old school measure and they are still winning. One that comes to mind is Gary Ocock.
Click to expand...
A high end electronic scale, measuring powder to the smallest possible variation,even in a controlled environment, not a loading shed, with a middle of the road shooter with a middle of the road setup/outfit, up against a top shelf shooter that knows how to set the rifle(build) up, knows the wind flags, that knows how to tune, that knows how to throw powder and load, shooting a 2gun, 20 targets, the top shelf shooter will mop the floor with the middle of the road shooters _ss, every time. Just My Humble Opinion. I sure hope this doesn't stir any _h_t up
Happy Thursday from corona ground zero NW Mew Mexico
 
pipeline60 said:
A high end electronic scale, measuring powder to the smallest possible variation,even in a controlled environment, not a loading shed, with a middle of the road shooter with a middle of the road setup/outfit, up against a top shelf shooter that knows how to set the rifle(build) up, knows the wind flags, that knows how to tune, that knows how to throw powder and load, shooting a 2gun, 20 targets, the top shelf shooter will mop the floor with the middle of the road shooters _ss, every time. Just My Humble Opinion. I sure hope this doesn't stir any _h_t up
Happy Thursday from corona ground zero NW Mew Mexico
Click to expand...

That middle of the road stuff isn’t going to win anything, period.

I never went Tony Boyer’s school, but a very good friend of mine did.

The the first morning with his Rife, he was told by Mr Boyer that the first thing he needed to get was a Rifle capable of winning. My friend thought he had one.

The brutal truth can be, well, brutal.

You give the best a Benchrest Shooter in the world a .300 Rifle, and that is exactly what he will agg, or worse.
 
I'll just add to Jackies above comment. "A GOOD Benchrest shooter, knows why he/she is not winning"


Glenn
 
try this now

Edward Ashley said:
I have had a Dillon Precision balance beam scale for some time, but recently I have been noticing some apparent irregularities. I use a dipper and finger tap those last few granules of powder to get it to zero. sometimes if I have overcharged the pan, and scoop some out with the dipper, the reaction is more than i would expect. if i play with it, by pushing the beam all the way up, letting it settle, then pushing it down all the way and letting it settle, I can get two different readings. ??? I will then slide the beam around some on the balance point, try again, and it often will get consistent after that. What is going on?
I have thought about getting an inexpensive electronic scale (not one of the $150+ ones), but when I see them saying they are accurate to plus or minus 0.1 grain, that is not good enough in my book, I am sure I get finer gradations with my hand trickling. Any thoughts on that?
Trying to do some load development and am questioning whether the powder load is what I think it is, and/or if it is staying consistent....
Click to expand...
watched tony put pd, in case then weigh it at the mainviolle club house
 
Bench Rest is some kind of religion where "reducing the variations" is the main cult.

For some, that is relaxing the brain once behind the gun watching the windflags. I have no variation anymore, I should shot well. Some Mantra/Zen in the BR game.

Reducing process variations is the creed of Quality Standards in many industries.


Issue is to determine the real, influent, assignable causes and to assess how much one SHALL reduce PERTINENT variations in order to get great shootings, assumed you ABSOLUTLY guess the wind right and that your gun holding/resting and trigger pinching are ABSOLUTE perfection.

One can spend an awfull lot of time, work and money to ABSOLUTLY reduce EVERY potential VARIATIONS in the BR game to ZERO.

Won't that be overkilling considering wind flag readings, mirage reading, gun sliping in the bags, gun holding for some, and so on ...


Old father Pareto said one day that 20% of causes produce 80% of effects.

The Truth or balance point in reducing variations most probably states somewhere in between ABSOLUTE and Pareto.


I read here above about charge weight accuracy at 0.05 grs. From a pure measurement standpoint, I have doubt about how significant that 0.05 grs is outside a measurement lab and outside a regular linking to a National Gauges Chain.

Of course, should someone feels better behind his gun with weighting 0.05 grs, he should not hesitate to do so, even if my own mind is that's gilding the lilies.

I tried many loads with perfect ES and SD shooting badly and many loads with bad ES and bad SD BUT shooting extremely well at 100/200 to go tackle 0.05 grs. Same went when I was sending 175 grs pills at 800 yd. The Truth is out there...


As a matter of fact (and QS9000 R&R proceedings), myself+ old Sinclair are capable at +/- 0.2 grain level and me + Jones are capable at +/- 0.15 grain. I am happy with it.
 
OliveOil said:
Bench Rest is some kind of religion where "reducing the variations" is the main cult.

For some, that is relaxing the brain once behind the gun watching the windflags. I have no variation anymore, I should shot well. Some Mantra/Zen in the BR game.

Reducing process variations is the creed of Quality Standards in many industries.


Issue is to determine the real, influent, assignable causes and to assess how much one SHALL reduce PERTINENT variations in order to get great shootings, assumed you ABSOLUTLY guess the wind right and that your gun holding/resting and trigger pinching are ABSOLUTE perfection.

One can spend an awfull lot of time, work and money to ABSOLUTLY reduce EVERY potential VARIATIONS in the BR game to ZERO.

Won't that be overkilling considering wind flag readings, mirage reading, gun sliping in the bags, gun holding for some, and so on ...


Old father Pareto said one day that 20% of causes produce 80% of effects.

The Truth or balance point in reducing variations most probably states somewhere in between ABSOLUTE and Pareto.


I read here above about charge weight accuracy at 0.05 grs. From a pure measurement standpoint, I have doubt about how significant that 0.05 grs is outside a measurement lab and outside a regular linking to a National Gauges Chain.

Of course, should someone feels better behind his gun with weighting 0.05 grs, he should not hesitate to do so, even if my own mind is that's gilding the lilies.

I tried many loads with perfect ES and SD shooting badly and many loads with bad ES and bad SD BUT shooting extremely well at 100/200 to go tackle 0.05 grs. Same went when I was sending 175 grs pills at 800 yd. The Truth is out there...


As a matter of fact (and QS9000 R&R proceedings), myself+ old Sinclair are capable at +/- 0.2 grain level and me + Jones are capable at +/- 0.15 grain. I am happy with it.
Click to expand...

LOVELY post OO!!

Thank You :)
 
Try this now

edward ashley said:
i have had a dillon precision balance beam scale for some time, but recently i have been noticing some apparent irregularities. I use a dipper and finger tap those last few granules of powder to get it to zero. Sometimes if i have overcharged the pan, and scoop some out with the dipper, the reaction is more than i would expect. If i play with it, by pushing the beam all the way up, letting it settle, then pushing it down all the way and letting it settle, i can get two different readings. ??? I will then slide the beam around some on the balance point, try again, and it often will get consistent after that. What is going on?
I have thought about getting an inexpensive electronic scale (not one of the $150+ ones), but when i see them saying they are accurate to plus or minus 0.1 grain, that is not good enough in my book, i am sure i get finer gradations with my hand trickling. Any thoughts on that?
Trying to do some load development and am questioning whether the powder load is what i think it is, and/or if it is staying consistent....
Click to expand...
throw your loads shoot five grps take targets and set in front 0f wind flaigs 10 ft in a period of time you wont rem how many differnt ypou directions was there that you could rember that would give you vert.not your load
 
billbrawand said:
throw your loads shoot five grps take targets and set in front 0f wind flaigs 10 ft in a period of time you wont rem how many differnt ypou directions was there that you could rember that would give you vert.not your load
Click to expand...
one kernel or twoonly changes your load if your light or heavy already.
 
My friend Gary Ocock holds several current records (short range group) both NBRSA and IBS. He throws all of his charges, including when he is shooting 133.
 
Boyd Allen said:
My friend Gary Ocock holds several current records (short range group) both NBRSA and IBS. He throws all of his charges, including when he is shooting 133.
Click to expand...



So ..... Extreme accuracy and reproducibility in powder charge weight may not be as significant as it may sound at first glance ...



Boyd,

Can you tell us which powder measure and drop tube length Gary was/is using ?
 
What about this

Last 3 yrs i noticed days before scales are pluged in beore some people grt there seems scales are more import than competers withelectric
 
Got a new scale today

I have been doubting the Aculab scale I have been using off and on for years so I bought another brand to try. It came today. I got it calibrated and will load a few tonight. It does weigh differently than the Aculab.

Pete
 
OliveOil said:
So ..... Extreme accuracy and reproducibility in powder charge weight may not be as significant as it may sound at first glance
Click to expand...

I think that the "Satterlee" method showed that there are points where increases in powder don't have a corresponding increase in velocity. :confused:
 
adamsgt said:
I think that the "Satterlee" method showed that there are points where increases in powder don't have a corresponding increase in velocity. :confused:
Click to expand...


So we all hunt for the best internal ballistic, trying to place that vibe node as close as possible from the muzzle, seeking for that "sweet spot" aka a balance in powder, load, bullet, seating, primer, rabbit foot color, Pig cap and so on ...

Sweet Spot is supposed to allow a very slight variation of a parameter (primer charge, powder charge, bullet weight, point shape, neck tension, seating, temperature, ....) at the cost of ALMOST no POI variation, or, let's put it another way, at the cost of a POI variation presumably much smaller that the shooter's ability ...

IMHO, the shooter is the weakest link in the chain.

But for some, almost is not enough ...


At my domestic matches, we have some guys weighting their charges with electric dispensers.

I met one or two guys many years ago that were sorting primers by weight ...

Not to speak about sorting cases by weight, another interesting subject ...
 
OliveOil said:
So we all hunt for the best internal ballistic, trying to place that vibe node as close as possible from the muzzle, seeking for that "sweet spot" aka a balance in powder, load, bullet, seating, primer, rabbit foot color, Pig cap and so on ...

Sweet Spot is supposed to allow a very slight variation of a parameter (primer charge, powder charge, bullet weight, point shape, neck tension, seating, temperature, ....) at the cost of ALMOST no POI variation, or, let's put it another way, at the cost of a POI variation presumably much smaller that the shooter's ability ...
Click to expand...

You forgot "time of the month"
 
The important thing is what matters

OliveOil said:
So we all hunt for the best internal ballistic, trying to place that vibe node as close as possible from the muzzle, seeking for that "sweet spot" aka a balance in powder, load, bullet, seating, primer, rabbit foot color, Pig cap and so on ...

Sweet Spot is supposed to allow a very slight variation of a parameter (primer charge, powder charge, bullet weight, point shape, neck tension, seating, temperature, ....) at the cost of ALMOST no POI variation, or, let's put it another way, at the cost of a POI variation presumably much smaller that the shooter's ability ...

IMHO, the shooter is the weakest link in the chain.

But for some, almost is not enough ...


At my domestic matches, we have some guys weighting their charges with electric dispensers.

I met one or two guys many years ago that were sorting primers by weight ...

Not to speak about sorting cases by weight, another interesting subject ...
Click to expand...

What matters is consistency, the exact charge behind a bullet that will be presented to the Throat of the lands exactly every time. this takes exact measurements, Those wit the fastest windflag wind reading scales
 
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