Powder scales..........a new thread

Rich De said:
Actually I have had a similar set up for the past four or five years. Just found it a bit on the slow side. I glued the pin in place for a more exact reference and added a magnifying glass for my "older" eyes. I am now thinking of building a new chute for my trickler with a smaller hole and fine thread to meter the finer grain powders I am using in the BRX. I really like the idea of the digital scales but do hear pros and cons? I talked with Sam Hall Saturday and he indicated he only uses a 5-0-5 balance beam for his loads.................Now here is the "Tony Boyer" of 600 yard competition? Yet other top shooters are using digital scales.........By the way, thanks Rodney for getting me those web sites! As indicated in the video, I have been able to see the change in the pointer with as little as a kernel of Varget. I may just try letting the Chargemaster weight to a tenth under and then with the same pan calibrated for both the Chargemaster and my 5-0-5 and trickle up! Man if it was only $50 bucks or so for the digital it would be a no brainier but $300+ and then I might not be satisfied? Hmmmmmmmmm?
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Rich, level the pan on the 505, then zero the same pan on the Chargemaster. Then dump with the Chargemaster and check each load on the 505. I think you will be surprised as to how accurate the Chargemaster is.

You may want to call Don Legg at RCBS and let him talk you through reprogramming the Chargemaster for your load range. As they come from RCBS they are set for about a 50 grain average load. They can be speeded up for larger loads or for lighter loads. But if they are reprogrammed for lighter loads they underspeed for heavy loads and vissy-varssy!!
 
well here is some herasy....i do loading the br way for a couple of guns, i use lee and lee target's for a couple of guns...but when i want to crank out accuracy and volume in pistol and 223/308 i use two dillon 550's...one in small primer ane in large primer. dillon powder measures are amazingly accurate( with certain powders). i hunt bullseyes only....
the bottom line is i use a mx123 for anything serious....as in seriously small groups.
why leave one more thing as an unknown in the mix.
mike in co
Rich De said:
The old Lymans are used to throw ligh charges for either pistol/revolver loads or for starter charges in my duplex and triplex smokeless muzzle loader loads. The two RCBS and REDDINGs have been used in the past for larger powder amounts in my hunting rifles. The picture had originally been taken for another forum to show the different types. If your interested in the Redding and RCBS Mike, I would be happy to sell them to you :) I would love to find a couple of Culver inserts for the Lyman's.
Rich De
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Expert target Jerry?????

Mike: You are probably right, but when you see how consistent Sam Hall shoots and the amount of small groups he produces and only uses a RCBS 5-0-5??? Kind of makes you think? I'm going to hold off a bit before plunking down my money. If I can modify my trickler to throw single or close to single kernals, I might ride this "urge" out :) Sometimes we get caught up in the "I want" vs. "I need" thing. Thanks all for the replies!
Rich De
 
Jerry. I have the aculab and it will make you want to pull your hair out. You must Let it warm up for 1hr+ period and even with the glass air shild any slight change I'n room tempature will affetct it. Hell even breathing on it will affect it. It's a sensitive SOB but i was able to get velocity spreads I'n the single digits and low teens.
 
kinda makes you think...
just how small would his groups be with a better scale......

Rich De said:
Expert target Jerry?????

Mike: You are probably right, but when you see how consistent Sam Hall shoots and the amount of small groups he produces and only uses a RCBS 5-0-5??? Kind of makes you think? I'm going to hold off a bit before plunking down my money. If I can modify my trickler to throw single or close to single kernals, I might ride this "urge" out :) Sometimes we get caught up in the "I want" vs. "I need" thing. Thanks all for the replies!
Rich De
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Mike.............Sam is confident he is weighting to within one to two kernels with his set up. He lent his gun and loads to a 12 year old at the last match who had three groups under 1.5" soooooooooooooooooo?????
Rich De
 
confident and actually doing it are two different things.
he has a good load, he has a good rifle and he is obviously a good shooter...but...
a 505 is only a plus or minus 0.1 scale...and with magnetic dampening..very hard to be better than that.
one ot two kernels of what ??


i have a load that is excellent at plus or minus 0.15........ low es/small groups..but that is one gun, not all guns.
so stan may have a sweet spot that does not care that he is plus or minus 0.1...entirely possible.
but
when you find a rifle that likes just one narrow band ...well the scale helps....

again why not be the little bit better than the next guys load ???

mike in co
Rich De said:
Mike.............Sam is confident he is weighting to within one to two kernels with his set up. He lent his gun and loads to a 12 year old at the last match who had three groups under 1.5" soooooooooooooooooo?????
Rich De
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After playing with a 10-10 beam and an Acculab scale for a year I am confident the beam can repeat the same charge as good and probably better than the digital and with good technique it's not any slower to use either especially if your trickling method is good and either method can repeatedly throw charges to within 2 kernels of powder without much care. The problem with the lab grade scale is they tend to wander depending on several factors some of which you can't always control like the signal from the power company and this is why some people love them and others can't get them to stop wandering. I just moved from a house where the scale wandered badly (actually unusable) after trying every trick in the book but my new house works great even with the scale plugged into the same outlet with an air-conditioner and all sorts of other stuff so go figure but the beam always behaves the same no matter what.
Also not to disagree but I never bump the pan it is so sensitive that it moves by itself and never gets sticky as others have said and it clearly moves with each kernel added and when i get it right the pan is in constant upwards motion anyways till the last kernel drops which also speeds up the process to avoid the beam going up and down excessively and adding time to each throw.
Also the fellow that posted the picture of the magnifying glass had a great idea and it really works and allows you to see the needle move better than with the naked eye and more easily allows you to detect each kernel dropping in. When it's quiet in the house you can speed up the process by listening to the kernels hit the pan and you develope a rythm to it and get in a zen mode and when I am 2 lines short on the scale I know to tap in so many kernels and it goes pretty quick and after a while don't even have to wait for the pan to settle.
 
Noticed a lot of you guys get to within a Kernel or two, Do you use a good set of Tweezers two remove one or two of the kernels and noticed even with H-4350 SC.Extreme that some may be a little Denser than others. Sometimes I'll put some on a piece of paper and take one or two to see if there is a difference. Tod I leave my scale on!


Joe Salt
 
Twentytwoguy.........Yeah, thats me with the magnifying glass :) I just switched my beam set up right next to my chargemaster. I have been playing with the chargemaster throwing the load a tenth under and then with the new, smaller ID barrel I made for my trickler? trickle one kernal at a time and can see the beam moving with each kernal. I hae my trickler set up on a stand with a rest for my hand. So, as you, I believe I can throw charges as accurate as the digital scale. My friend just ordered the Veritas S123 and I am going to compare it to the beam. First we will have to see how he likes it.
Rich De
 
i a m happy to see that the vintage 505 and 10-10's are better than the mx123 ......
i see a couple of issues here and then will leave you to your own choices.
one: we are on the 600/1000 yd forum and a lot of large lernel powder is used.
so you may see one kernel movement..or you may not.....
but when you move to short range or small kernel powder you will not.
two: hysterisous does exsist...its a fact. resistance to change......
so again maybe you see changes with large kernel powder...but go to n133 8202 or ball and only the lab scales will show you
the small changes.
so will a 10-10 work for 1000 yd when modified...heck maybe yes...is a lab scale better...heck yes.
again just because YOU cannot get a lab scale to work better that a 10-10....doen not make all lab scales only as good as a 10-10.
done.
mike in co
 
My 10-10 is a lot better than it was. Do I think that it is the equal of my friend's + $300 electronic scale...no, but since I load at the range, don't think that I would get much use out of a .02 gr. sensitive electronic scale.
 
Mike............I am happy to see you are done :) I am not shooting short range and when I did, I never brought anything but my Harrell's with me. You are probably right about the smaller kernals of N-133. I will do some testing with my friends Veritas 123 when he gets to and compare results. Eggman just e-mailed me and agreed that if I can see one kernal changes (Varget/H-4895/R-15) then I can probably weight as close as a $250 "lab" scale. Since, he indicated, they do tend to wander and can be effected by power supply and other external "stuff." I have not written the digital scale off, just going to wait and see.
Rich De
 
Balance-digital scales.jpgBalance-digital scales (2).jpgsmaller trickler barrel.jpg
Well, yesterday I got to see my frined Bill's new Veritas S123-- 2/100's digital powder scale. He brought it to our range (which is enclosed and has electricity) and we set it up on a very stable heavy bench bolted to a concrete wall. We let it warm up for well over an hour. We watched to see if it was "wandering" and it did become stable. I then weighted out two vials of 30.0 gr. of Varget........actually 30.02!
When I got home, I warmed up my RCBS Chargemaster and weighted the two charges individually. Both read 30.0. I then poured the charges into the pan for my RCBS balance beam. Both charges brught the line in the center of the beam exactly even with the "pin" I had glued on ( a couple of years ago). Next I proceded to drop individual kernals in the pan until the center line was now precisely "on top" of the "pin". This took some 7 kernals of powder. The pan was then emptied into the pan on the Chargemaster where it still read 30.0 grains. Twice it briefly flickered to 30.1 but then went back to 30.0 and remained.
What I gathered from this is that I am confident I can measure charges just about as close as the 2/100's digital scale. I will admit that viewing the digital scale is a bit easier on the eyes but never the less is capable of doing so. End result? Will I buy the scale????????????? Not sure yet. :) But, I did learn from comments on this thread and from my own experimenting. Thanks for all who commented.......Even Mike:) Look, if money way no object here, I would buy the scale, plain and simple! But since it is, I have to "weight" other needs.
Rich De
 
mike in co said:
confident and actually doing it are two different things.
he has a good load, he has a good rifle and he is obviously a good shooter...but...
a 505 is only a plus or minus 0.1 scale...and with magnetic dampening..very hard to be better than that.
one ot two kernels of what ??


i have a load that is excellent at plus or minus 0.15........ low es/small groups..but that is one gun, not all guns.
so stan may have a sweet spot that does not care that he is plus or minus 0.1...entirely possible.
but
when you find a rifle that likes just one narrow band ...well the scale helps....

again why not be the little bit better than the next guys load ???

mike in co
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Are you serious.......A kid shoots 3 sub 1.5 inch groups....and you are doubting if he is "actualy doing it"!!!

Man...you gotta be DA KING of LR shooting if a 1.5 agg don't impress you!!
 
two charges is about as un sientific as possible...its like schiting in the wind and claim the sky is falling. you "learned " nothing with two charges. you dilutied yourself into "believeing" you can get to lab scale accuracy with a .1 scale...it aint possible.
your own 2 charge "experiment" showed the need for additional kernals...which then showed the 30.0 was closer to 30.1......that is not anywhere near 0.02.....
read your own stuff and think.
when i did my scale/thrown/mx123 analysis, i did ONE HUNDRED charges...and that is still a small sample size in the real world.
will your setup work for 1000/600, i would say yes as long as you are using large kernal powder, is it anywhere near a lab scale at 0.02...no way.

mike in co
 
I use Tanita 1230 mini scale. Weighs to .05 gr. Search internet to get them around $200.
 
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