Powder scales..........a new thread

[Rich De]

I did not want to steal Ted's post so thought it best to start a new thread:

Here is my delima
I have been around the long range game for about 11 years now and had always relied on my RCBS 1010 scale. I set it up at eye level and even mounted a permanent magnifying glass so my "older" eyes could see the balance line clearly. It does work........but as was mentioned, 1/10 gr.??? It could be at the top end or at the bottom end and that can amount to five, six or seven kernals and still be within the 1/10 range. The larger the case capacity, the less critical I believe it is. I had been shooting 1K exclusively with a 6.5x.284 imp. or "super" in the area of 54 gr. H-4831. Since Hawk's Ridge is basically no longer and the NC guys moved out to Butner almost 4 hr. away vs. 50 min. to Hawk's, I now am shooting the 600 yard game down at Piedmont just one hour away I also like the foremat much better than the "loose your relay" and pack up your gun senario.........but I digress!
With the 600 yard game I am shooting a 6mmBRX with 32 to 33 gr. of either Varget or H-4895. Here, a tenth could relate to a more noticeable difference in pressure (although it could be said that at 600 its less critical?)
What I am getting at, and I guess I'm looking for a survey, so to speak, of who or how many are using scales that measure to .00 rather than .0 ?
What got me to thinking about it was in loading for my .17 MK4. I have alway thrown my charges with my Harrell's measure and it works! 17 to 20 gr. of H-4198 or N-135. And it does dispose of ground hogs out just past 300 yards. While prepping it for an up coming "friendly" 300 yard Egg Shoot at our club, I noticed the ES was quite high..........like above 75 fps? Then I got to thinking that that little case responds to small incriments one way or the other. So a tenth in that little case can really up or down pressure and subsequent velocity. This got me thinking about the BRX. Just a note: I had gotten a RCBS Chargemaster a few years ago based on the tests run over at 6mmBR.com. And, have been very happy with it. But, the same situation applies to the electronic scale as the beam. Do I need the Lab quality .00 scale? Will it improve my group/scores? I was able to agg. 2.2" at the last match for four targets. Will the scale get me into the 1.???? I guess I'm rambling and just looking for some backing one way or the other before I plunk down $300
Rich De

 

[Boyd Allen]

Rich,
There is a fellow who has made a side business of tuning balance reloading scales. He claims that he can make one show a difference of one particle of powder. I believe that he lives in Bakersfield, CA. I have spoken with him, and having done a few things to my scale, that make it work much better, I believe that he knows what he is about, and has done a bunch of scales, for $60 plus shipping ( I think). Also, I found this to be of interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCs0Y7HH2zA&feature=related

Boyd

 

[mike in co]

mx123 or its replacement....02 with .03 sensitivity....about 300 dollars
there is an upscale that is 0.01..but much more money( jackie s has one)

mine sits on a 60 lb or so granite surface block...on a solid base...

its how i load my 300 win mag....4831......69.5 plus or minus .03.....or so..not plus ot minus 0.1

there must be ten threads out there on this very subject...do some searching....

mike in co

 

[Bob Pastor]

Hi Rich,

I had my balance beam scale tuned by the gentleman in California. Contact him, you will not be sorry. I have a Jewish friend who deals with gold. I asked him about electonic scales one time. His response was " The only way to measure gold is on a balance beam. That way you never get cheated". I took his advice and never looked back.

 

[John Kielly]

I modified my balance scale similar to that one in the Youtube video, but in reverse. I attached a sticker out of a projectile box to the scale, with a leg pointer that was bent to sit in front of & just clear the scale arm. The leg was left with the backing paper on it so it didn't adhere to anything:



However, therse days, I only use my balance to work up a load. I then trim a suitable projectile until it tips the scale exactly the same as the chosen load, then weigh the loads using a very inexpensive oriental battery powered scale. It mightn't read the same number as my balance, but once I set it up with my test weight projectile, it will continue to weigh accurate to a single powder granule & repeat that weight if I dump a load back to check. It needs a bit of TLC & care in operation, but it does the job.

John

 

[dk hunt 14]

Rich, I believe most of the top shooters are using digital scales that read to hundredths. Matt

 

[Charles E]

(Since this is a sort of poll)

Rich,

I use two electronic scales, both of which weigh only to 0.1 grains. The first is a Chargemaster, The second a Denver Instruments. They weigh about 1 kernel different with Rel-25. So I throw a .1 grain "light" with the CM, then weigh& trickle up on the Denver Instruments. With the coarser powders I use, a tenth of a grain is 2-3 kernels. Since I trickle up, I should be within 1 kernel with each charge.

The downside is it is slow, it takes the DI 2 seconds or more. Best technique is to lift the pan and & re-seat it.

Of course, since I don't weigh to .0-whatever, I can't say I'd not see an improvement. No data. But for R-22, R-25, and H4831 I believe I'm within 2 kernels with my 70+ grain charges.

My CM will often throw heavy. When you look at how it works, you can see why: one more "jerk" of the tube usually results in more than one kernel being dropped. I rely on the DI.

In the final analysis, I'd say the quality of the scale is more important than 0.1 versus 0.01. Joel has a nice 0.02 (i.e., +/- .05 accuracy). I've always though it a good one, but I think it cost him around $500. Can't remember the brand, you could call & ask him.

Charles

 

[Tod Soeby]

So I will ask here what I asked in my other scale post.....Those of you with high end electrics.....do you need to warm them up for hours/leave them on, or just plug and play? Do they need to be on a "60 lb or so granite serface block", or just set them on my rickity loading bench and git-r-done?

 

[Rich De]

Thanks all for the replies!
Rich De

 

[Charles E]

So I will ask here what I asked in my other scale post.....Those of you with high end electrics.....do you need to warm them up for hours/leave them on, or just plug and play? Do they need to be on a "60 lb or so granite serface block", or just set them on my rickity loading bench and git-r-done?

I leave the Denver Instruments on. The Chargemaster I turn on 15-30 minuted before using, and when checked against the always-on DI, it seems fine with that.

My scales are on neither a granite surface block nor a rickity table -- there is a middle ground. I do take the CM to the range for loading there; it's wind shield is a must for electronic scales at the range. If you want to be fussy with "range weights" just throw an extra charge or five in a bottle, and weigh that on the good scale when you get home.

FWIW

 

[D2xshooter]

I have been using both the balance beam and the electronic. I found the balance beam when adjusted as very accurate. However I like the speed and easy read of a Vicon vic 123. It is a lab scale that measures in hundredths of a grain. It is easy to calibrate and I leave mine on to minimize excess humidity as I am in south Florida.

 

[gt40]

Rich De or anyone else who might like to make me blush.

Rich De shoots a 6BRX and I shoot a 6mm Norma BR. with Berger 105 gr. VLDs, Varget & CCI4 primers.

My experience with my loads which have ranged from 29 gr., 29.5 gr, 30 gr., 30.5 gr., 31.5 gr., 31 gr. and 31.5 grains of Varget with all the 105s touching the lands. At 100 yds. I can not tell the difference in group size. I have not compared the group sizes at 200 yds or farther. I now shoot with 31.5 gr. to get the velocity up for shooting at 1,000 yds. Tomorrow I will load from minus forty thousands, minus twenty thousands off the lands and touching and ten thousands and fifteen thousands into & 20 into the lands to see if that will help bring my 8+1/8" 5 shot group at 1,000 down smaller. My point is does measuring the powder that exact really make a difference? With my 505 I try to weigh each charge as accurately as I can.

Almost forgot that I average 24 fps different from shot to shot with 31.5 gr.

OK guys tell me what ever to get me on the right track.

gt40

PS: I have watched 100 yd. bench rest shooters reload at matches and do not weigh at all.

 

[Rich De]

Here's the thing............. At 100 or 200 and maybe even 300 yards (Short Range Benchrest) probably 50 or 75 fps will not make a significant difference in point of impact. Hence, you rarely see powder scales at short range matches............Maybe, if is a 300 yard match????? The problem occurs in long range shooting..........say 500 or 600 yards and beyond. Due to the bullet starting its rapid decent and slowing down, a 25 fps difference in velocity at the muzzle can translate to some three to four inches at 1,000 yards. If in doubt, run the ballistics on one of the programs available on the internet. Change the MV by 25 fps and see the point of impact at 1,000 yards and you will get the picture.
So, the fact that with a scale that measures to 1/10th grain means your loads might actually be 2/10's apart since there is the high end of you load and the low end. One case migh have a charge that falls in the lower limit of your charge and the next in the upper limit. With many of the powders I use, it take about 6 "kernals" to make 1/10........that means you could be as much as 12 kernals between cartridges and your scale will still read whatever it is you are weighting. I don't know for a fact how many FPS a kernal or five or ten kernals relate to? Most chronographs avialable are not capable of reading that close. I called a knowledgeable friend ( HC ) that has an Oehler 43 ballistic chronograph with his "start/stop" screens set 24' apart. This set up migh be able to decipher the difference. I asked if he had ever triedd such an experiment and he confessed he had not..........since he uses a very expensive lab scale (he said about $1200 in 1987) to weight EVEN his hunting loads. So, I'm feeling it might be a good thing to get my loads a little more accurate. Maybe a t 600 yards I'm spinning my wheels and maybe, just maybe a match that I lost by .050", I might have won????????? So, I am researching prices on the Acculab 123
Rich De

 

[JerrySharrett]

Rich you bring up a good point, most of us don't have chrono's accurate enough to measure ES/SD for long range. I use a Ohler 35 but I don't have the screenes but 48". Its better than a Chrony though, but not good enough for serious long range testing.

Tell you what, lets all load up and go down to Henry's and use his setup, and eat his groceries,...and.. drink his beer!!

 

[gt40]

I watched the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCs0Y7HH2zA&feature=related

I then glued a pin to the balance beam and fixed the weight so it would center at zero grains. Boy what a difference. I think I can weigh within 3 kernels or less now with Varget. I keep the needle at the edge of the black line it points to.

gt40

 

[mike in co]

just remember to move the beam everytime you add to the pan.....all else is folly
mike in co

 

[Rich De]

Actually I have had a similar set up for the past four or five years. Just found it a bit on the slow side. I glued the pin in place for a more exact reference and added a magnifying glass for my "older" eyes. I am now thinking of building a new chute for my trickler with a smaller hole and fine thread to meter the finer grain powders I am using in the BRX. I really like the idea of the digital scales but do hear pros and cons? I talked with Sam Hall Saturday and he indicated he only uses a 5-0-5 balance beam for his loads.................Now here is the "Tony Boyer" of 600 yard competition? Yet other top shooters are using digital scales.........By the way, thanks Rodney for getting me those web sites! As indicated in the video, I have been able to see the change in the pointer with as little as a kernal of Varget. I may just try letting the Chargemaster weight to a tenth under and then with the same pan calibrated for both the Chargemaster and my 5-0-5 and trickle up! Man if it was only $50 bucks or so for the digital it would be a no brainer but $300+ and then I might not be satisfied? Hmmmmmmmmm?
Rich De

 

[mike in co]

sell the four commercial powder throwers and you will have most of the cost of a decent lab electronic scale.....

mike in co

 

[John Kielly]

Commercial powder throwers are perfectly acceptable to toss a starting charge. One for each of favourite loads works for me, particularly while I can pick up run in Lees at bargain basement prices.

 

[Rich De]

The old Lymans are used to throw ligh charges for either pistol/revolver loads or for starter charges in my duplex and triplex smokeless muzzle loader loads. The two RCBS and REDDINGs have been used in the past for larger powder amounts in my hunting rifles. The picture had originally been taken for another forum to show the different types. If your interested in the Redding and RCBS Mike, I would be happy to sell them to you I would love to find a couple of Culver inserts for the Lyman's.
Rich De