powder "burning dirty"

[alinwa]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bp_burning/bp_burning.html

http://www.frfrogspad.com/intballi.htm http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/storage_handling.aspx

these should answer most of the questions as for the way smokeless and black powder burn the are both self contained reactions set off by catalysts black powder is more reactive at atmospheric pressure than smokeless and smokeless requires the heat and pressure to liberate the oxygen for the reaction to be efficient

black powder is a low explosive smokeless is a propellent remember the flash for the old pictures 1 gram of blackpowder burns in about .15 seconds in open air puff same amount of 4895 about 1.5seconds try it but not on your bench ,dont want your wife blaming me for burning the house down

Nice links buy not really supportive of your first assertion. Both powders are propellants. Both powders deflagrate as opposed to "explode." Low explosives deflagrate at subsonic speeds, whereas high explosives detonate, producing a supersonic wave. Both powders will "explode" or burst a vessel if contained. Oddly enough, smokeless powder IS a true high explosive. Initiate it with a blasting cap or a primary like acetone peroxide and it'll detonate, uncontained.


I've never heard of using BP for flash photography. "Flashpowder" is a far cry from black powder, not even in the same ballpark, but at any rate comparing a slowburning rifle powder to black doesn't seem right.....IMO a more fair comparison would be to rate propagation of a fast smokeless like Clays or Bullseye instead of 4895.


BTW I did almost burn my buddy's house down 35yrs ago with homade BP long story concerning mfgr of wick material, rocket motors and loose blackpowder. The Good Lord looks out for fools sometimes.

It wasn't until 20yrs later I was introduced to flashpowder. Wicked stuff, NOT a propellant! Novelty or pyro only....

al

 

[CYanchycki]

Like on of the earlier posts said 133 being one of the cleanest in the PPC and 10X the dirtiest. I have never tried 10X in it but I compare all to how clean 133 is out of the PPC. With 133 and Aqua Clean the 1st patch is muddy, the 2nd basically just streaks from the grooves and the 3rd even lighter streaks. If I shot the XBR 8208 it was muddy patches for a long time. I put that stuff back in the cabinet.

One of the earlier posts also meantioned ball powders and the fouling on the neck and case. I see that when I use it in my 243 with 55gr Sierra BK's. It is a pain to clean the cases but sure shoots well. The barrel is a bit dirty as well.

If I am correct I would also say it is dirty when the streaks come all the way down the sides of the case.

I should say that would happen because it is NOT building pressure fast enough or is that to fast????? I have seen that in the 243 when trying different powders trying to find the magic powder for the mid weight bullets.

All in all I want the bench rifles to shoot accurately with the cleasnest burn possible. Thus I do not ahve that mental block wondering if I am getting all the carbon out with routine cleaning.

This post make any sense????????

 

[jackie schmidt]

Al, the only time I ran into a situation where a "dirty burning" powder actually affected the agging capability is back when we all fell for the 10X.

It did shoot quite well, and velocity was up there where we wanted it. But, (especially in Unlimited Rifles), after about 7 shots down the barrel, accuracy would fall off. The only explanation we could come up with was that black gummy stuff that was in the barrel. You can remember that you had to use 10 times the wet patches just to get that stuff out.

Then, the manufacturer poured gasoline on the fire when, after bringing out the "new cleaner 10x", told us they would not exchange the old for the new, even though some of us had purchased quite a bit of it.

 

[alinwa]

Al, the only time I ran into a situation where a "dirty burning" powder actually affected the agging capability is back when we all fell for the 10X.

It did shoot quite well, and velocity was up there where we wanted it. But, (especially in Unlimited Rifles), after about 7 shots down the barrel, accuracy would fall off. The only explanation we could come up with was that black gummy stuff that was in the barrel. You can remember that you had to use 10 times the wet patches just to get that stuff out.

Then, the manufacturer poured gasoline on the fire when, after bringing out the "new cleaner 10x", told us they would not exchange the old for the new, even though some of us had purchased quite a bit of it.

ahhhh, now here we gots an answer with teeth....

I've never used 10X

al

 

[swmft]

dupont

Al, the only time I ran into a situation where a "dirty burning" powder actually affected the agging capability is back when we all fell for the 10X.

It did shoot quite well, and velocity was up there where we wanted it. But, (especially in Unlimited Rifles), after about 7 shots down the barrel, accuracy would fall off. The only explanation we could come up with was that black gummy stuff that was in the barrel. You can remember that you had to use 10 times the wet patches just to get that stuff out.

Then, the manufacturer poured gasoline on the fire when, after bringing out the "new cleaner 10x", told us they would not exchange the old for the new, even though some of us had purchased quite a bit of it.

the one i remember was the DuPont high grade rifle powder before imr was on the tins swear the stuff was black powder left as much grit in a Winchester thought it was dropped on a beach. used it to remove a stump

 

[Larry Elliott]

Larry I don`t know this to be true, but I`ve been told by what I feel are reliable people the deal is "all the powder that is going to burn, burns within the 1st inch or so of the barrel". That does not mean "all" the powder is burnt, just that all the powder that can burn with the oxygen that the chemical process produces does. The gas that is produced is still full of extremely hot unburnt flammables that re-ignite upon contact with the air and a fresh oxygen supply showing as "muzzle flash".
Again, I have no proof, this is just what I`ve been led to believe occurs.

I probably should have added the proviso that the powder has to be operating within it's intended pressure parameters. I'm sure that 7828 wouldn't burn properly behind an 85 gr bullet and all of it that could be jammed into the case with lots of jiggling, tapping, and compression. Most modern rifle powders aren't designed to operate at 30 kpsi.

 

[Charles E]

ahhhh, now here we gots an answer with teeth....

I've never used 10X

al

IIRC, the original 10X had, as a part of it's coating, a composition that was suppose to deter copper fouling, and that's what caused the excessive "dirtyness." I still have about 8 pounds of that original batch. It shots OK when the outside temperature is over 80 degrees F. Not so good when it's cold, like match one, relay one, at 8:00 am.

 

[swmft]

IIRC, the original 10X had, as a part of it's coating, a composition that was suppose to deter copper fouling, and that's what caused the excessive "dirtyness." I still have about 8 pounds of that original batch. It shots OK when the outside temperature is over 80 degrees F. Not so good when it's cold, like match one, relay one, at 8:00 am.

Does it actually work I mean reduce copper fowling or was it more donkey dung