Possible Dangerous Cartridges, Caution!

B

Bulletpusher

Guest
Just a note of Caution to shooters of factory cartridges.

My boss told me of a primer detonation in one of his rifles. He was shooting on his private range and he had a pressure release through the relief ports of the receiver of his rifle and hit him in the face. Thankfully he was not injured.

The primer was destroyed and the cartridge case was stuck in the chamber. This is a .308 Winchester cambered rifle. We talked about what could have been the problem that caused the primer to blow.

Now my first surprise was the cartridges that he was shooting were Black Hills Red Box HPBT Moly coated Match (don't know the bullet weight). Black Hills has a solid reputation anywhere in the world, and I have to believe this has to be a very isolated incident.

When this happened, after pulling the trigger and the primer firing, releasing the gasses and other material from the relief holes in the receiver, he tried to open the bolt and found it was hard to open. The extractor on the bolt is now chipped, and the cartridge was stuck in the chamber and he didn't think the bullet had gone downrange like it should have.

We talked about what could have gone wrong, i.e. wrong calibre cartridge for the rifle, wrong powder in a factory cartridge, bad primer, etc. etc. Told him he should try to bump the cartridge out of the chamber and that if he had any trouble with to see a qualified gun smith.

That was yesterday, today he brought me the cartridge that he removed. The cartridge was of the correct caliber and the case was slightly collapsed due to bumping it from chamber. Bullet looked to be the right one but was pushed back down in the case a little which made it hard to check for proper dia. and the case still felt like it was full of unburned powder. The primer was not in the case and looked like it had been flattened with a hammer and the primer pocket was blackened of course. Cause at this point was unknown.

And now for the cause that we found. After thinking about it for a moment I took a paper clip and tried to push it through the carbon covering the flash hole, ended up with a very shiny brass dot in the bottom of the primer pocked where the hole should have been. The primer flash hole did not go all the way thru to the powder. The primer had perform by going off, it just didn't have anywhere to go.

I repeat this is a Black Hills Red Box factory cartridge and not a handload. I've seen other cartridge makers over the years that had some malfunction in a cartridge here and there, but this is the first time I've seen it from Black Hills.

Just thought everyone should know, for future reference, this could have been a lot worse than just a blown primer.

Bulletpusher
 
I once bought some 338 win mag cases , new in bulk. One case had no flash hole.
Speculated many times what the effect would be
 
Bulletpusher said:
Just a note of Caution to shooters of factory cartridges.

My boss told me of a primer detonation in one of his rifles. He was shooting on his private range and he had a pressure release through the relief ports of the receiver of his rifle and hit him in the face. Thankfully he was not injured.

The primer was destroyed and the cartridge case was stuck in the chamber. This is a .308 Winchester cambered rifle. We talked about what could have been the problem that caused the primer to blow.

Now my first surprise was the cartridges that he was shooting were Black Hills Red Box HPBT Moly coated Match (don't know the bullet weight). Black Hills has a solid reputation anywhere in the world, and I have to believe this has to be a very isolated incident.

When this happened, after pulling the trigger and the primer firing, releasing the gasses and other material from the relief holes in the receiver, he tried to open the bolt and found it was hard to open. The extractor on the bolt is now chipped, and the cartridge was stuck in the chamber and he didn't think the bullet had gone downrange like it should have.

We talked about what could have gone wrong, i.e. wrong calibre cartridge for the rifle, wrong powder in a factory cartridge, bad primer, etc. etc. Told him he should try to bump the cartridge out of the chamber and that if he had any trouble with to see a qualified gun smith.

That was yesterday, today he brought me the cartridge that he removed. The cartridge was of the correct caliber and the case was slightly collapsed due to bumping it from chamber. Bullet looked to be the right one but was pushed back down in the case a little which made it hard to check for proper dia. and the case still felt like it was full of unburned powder. The primer was not in the case and looked like it had been flattened with a hammer and the primer pocket was blackened of course. Cause at this point was unknown.

And now for the cause that we found. After thinking about it for a moment I took a paper clip and tried to push it through the carbon covering the flash hole, ended up with a very shiny brass dot in the bottom of the primer pocked where the hole should have been. The primer flash hole did not go all the way thru to the powder. The primer had perform by going off, it just didn't have anywhere to go.

I repeat this is a Black Hills Red Box factory cartridge and not a handload. I've seen other cartridge makers over the years that had some malfunction in a cartridge here and there, but this is the first time I've seen it from Black Hills.

Just thought everyone should know, for future reference, this could have been a lot worse than just a blown primer.

Bulletpusher
Click to expand...

a few years back I bought about 1000 Blackhills .223 match rounds. Over 40% of the rounds had loose primer pockets! And some of the rounds had over .015" runout in the bullet from the factory. The rounds didn't seem very hotly loaded or anything like that, and were either 50 or 55 grain hard ball. Blackhills anything is now something I tend to avoid like an ex mother inlaw
gary
 
The only way to avoid making a mistake is to do nothing. Anyone who does ANYTHING is going to make a mistake. The people and companies who do it least are the good ones, those who do it frequently need to be avoided.

JMHO, but derived from experience.
 
Larry Elliott said:
The only way to avoid making a mistake is to do nothing. Anyone who does ANYTHING is going to make a mistake. The people and companies who do it least are the good ones, those who do it frequently need to be avoided.

JMHO, but derived from experience.
Click to expand...


THANK YOU LARRY!!!! For being a voice of reason.

I din't dare before you spoke up.

It ain't PC

It aint always fair

But dagnab it, LIFE HAPPENS don' it??

And if good people stand by doing nothing whilst the "perfect worlders" tremble...... we'll all end up huddled together under the holey security blanket

Sorry for the rant, but I DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE GUY!

c'MON... livealiddle

heeepers

al
 
Something is not right about this.

Check the cartridge again. Generally speaking, primer detonation alone will not cause blowback thru gas ports and chipped extractor.

First, weigh the entire cartridge and compare the weight to a known good round of similiar bullet/powder loading. If there is a considerable difference, you will have your first indication of the actual problem.

Second, disassemble the entire malfunctioned cartridge, bullet and powder, you will probably have to use a kinetic bullet puller to do this, since, as you stated, the bullet has been flattened during the removal of the cartridge from the chamber (very dangerous if powder is unburnt and knocked out with a rod). Double check to see if what you thought was a an incomplete flash hole, was in actuallity a double loaded bullet with the base of the first bullet up against the flash hole giving the appearance of incomplete hole.

This scenario would be a more likely cause of a high pressure detonation and damage than just a primer/flash hole problem. If this scenario is not the case than disregard and my apologies for the conjecture.

Either way, there appears to be an ammunition problem.............Don
 
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Rereading the original problem I can't understand how a lack of flashhole in the case would cause most of the problems experienced. The primer blowing would be expected possibly, I've never had a case with no flash hole that I primed and tried to fire though. BUT, if the primer didn't have a flash hole to flash through to ignite the powder the case could have been loaded with Bullseye and there couldn't be excessive pressures from the wrong powder, too much powder, or anything else involved with the load or bullet.

That the case had to be driven out of the chamber seems a little strange to me. If the primer was destroyed and pressure vented through gas ports it wouldn't seem that there'd be enough energy to drive the case into the chamber so tightly that it would need to be driven out. It's possible though, it might not take much of a whack to jam the case into the chamber that tightly.

Did the failed round chamber normally when it was chambered to fire it?
 
Me thinks fiddling with or dissecting the round would not be prudent. What happened here is obviously a concern for many people, and just tearing it apart, may not be the wise thing to do. Having said that, I would not just give it away either. I would find someone that can give you an explanation for this and not just guess at it.
 
C'mon guys, bulletpusher said it didn't have a flashhole.......

He looked at it, found the cause. I don't think the problem should be over-thought, HE FOUND IT! MY problem is in "blaming" someone. We live in a society where everyone wants to pass the buck on for accidents. Hey, they happen. Axles snap, brakes fail, manmade processes are imperfect. The case was mis-manufactured, it happens. Lynn had one with no flashhole at all a while back.

IMO the primer has plenty of push to lock case into chamber and blow out.

If there's a life-lesson to be learned here it's WEAR YOUR STEENKING SAFETY GLASSES at all times.

It is further my opinion that naming names and casting blame for accidents which are not directly the result of carelessness is unfair to the parties involved. Black Hills didn't manufacture the cases.....

al
 
al, I always look forward to your words of wit.

No flash hole would be very easy to detect. I am in a business where "NO" defects are acceptable in a finished product. I have to take measures to ensure that any reject material never gets to an end user. In the past business could
get away with dealing with a little damage control. Today it's necessary to avoid it altogether. I do not believe anyone wants anyone to be at fault, but if the loss of someones eyesight could be avoided then its wise to see that the folks involved are given the opportunity to Analise the item.

What did the Manufacturer say?
 
I would think the best thing to do is discuss this issue directly with Black Hills. I am sure they will want as much of the round & it's peices as you can gather to send to them. These kinds of issues should result in a re-think of the manufacturing procedures so it can't happen again. And I'm also +1 fot the shooting glasses.
 
The Lot No. on the flap of the box is as follows: 1424040607

This is on the end flap of a Black Hills Red Box of new (factory loaded) .308 Win. Match Moly Coated, 168 Gr. Boat Tail Hollow Point (New Cartridges)

It was round no. 15 (14 others had already been fired with no problems) from that box that the primer let go due to it having no place to go. (i.e. lack of a flash hole in the primer pocket).

I looked at the case again (used a magnifying glass both times) and there is defiantly no primer pocket flash hole, the only damage on the primer end of the cartridge case is that the primer is flattened out and it is not in the primer pocket, it came out when it was set off by the firing pin and is in one piece.

I've seen 7mm Rem. cartridges loaded by Winchester (about 10 - 15 years ago) that were factory loaded with no powder just primer and bullet, send the bullet about half way down a 26" barrel from just the primer and nothing else. This leads me to think that a case could be pushed into a chamber if there is no where for the primer detonation to go, it pushes the cartridge forward into the chamber. It may be a minimal amount but that's all it would take to stick a cartridge case in the chamber.

The bullet was not pushed all the way back into the case by bumping it out of the chamber. It was stopped by the unburnt powder in the case. The case was distorted somewhat by the removal and just the nose of the bullet was distorted by the removal. We have no way of knowing how much of the distortion of the case was caused by the sticking.

Hope this clears up any questions.

Let me know what you guys think.

Bulletpusher
 
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The suggestion to contact Black Hills and if they want it back to send the remains back to them sounds like the direction to go.

Wearing safety glasses if you don't wear glasses already should be mandatory. I knew one shooter who'd lost an eye when a primer let go and hot gasses and primer remnants came back down the bolt and hit his eye. If he saw anyone shooting without glasses he wasn't shy at all about telling them to get some eye protection.

Sending the lawyers out to get someone for a mistake that would be easy to occur doesn't make any sense to me. Too many people figure that anyone with deep(er) pockets is a good target whether they're at fault or not. Black Hills buys their cases from someone, and I'm sure that Black Hills would want to know so that they can contact the case manufacturer. They'll also likely institute more inspection steps to prevent such an occurrence in the future.
 
Primer pocket missing

I was a product liability investigator for major manufactrurers (including Winchester-Olin) for many years. I can tell you that Black Hills would like to see the entire box of cartridges, fired or not, as well as the failed round, and it should be intact, with no alterations. Black Hills undoubtedly has an indemnification agreement with the brass producer, and they will forward the specimen to them for analysis. They will not disclose the result of their investigation to you. They may also ask to see the rifle.
 
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Just my thoughts.

If there is NO FLASH HOLE, how could the bullet be pushed out of the cartridge and how could there be UNBURNT powder.

There is something going on here and we're just not seeing it.

Again, just my thoughts, but what do I know.

Roy
 
This is the way I read the original post.

1. There is unburnt powder, all of it is unburnt as no primer flash reached it. Some are assuming there is some burnt powder because it was stated there was unburnt powder.

2. The bullet was not in the case neck but driven back into the case by a rod from the muzzle end of the rifle. The bullet never left the case neck forward it was only driven back into the case on removal.

3. Since the case had no flash hole a combination of firing pin force and primer detonation drove the case tightly into the chamber necessitating the use of a rod from the muzzle to remove it.

This was an unfortunate incident that happens in most peoples live at one time. We the US public are inundated with commercials daily that insist that we sue someone and collect large sums of money if anything goes wrong, even if we weren't hurt.

I would contact Black Hills about the problem and let them propose a solution, such as repair of the rifle. The lawyers are bankrupting many fine companies because of our need to lay blame on someone when something goes wrong, then expecting a payout that would support a person the rest of his/her life.

That said, I believe this incident was in no way caused by the shooter.
 
I used to work for remington and winchester. Both had the contract at lake city at different times. I dont know how black hills primes their cases but the pierce and prime high speeds at LC had detect switchs that would detect a problem like no flash hole. But we ran a few more cases than black hills. I dont see how a case could get back into production if it kicked the priming machine off. Maybe their system is way different than ours was. Thats one problem that final inspection wouldnt find.
 
I keep hearing all these stories where just a primer firing drives a bullet into the barrel, etc. I can tell you from personal experience shooting a 6ppc I have gone to the line on more than one occasion with some of my cases having no powder in them. Distraction, ignorance, call it what you want but only on one occasion did a primer alone stick a bullet in the lands. And in that case a mild tap with a cleaning rod dislodged the stuck bullet. If a primer drives a bullet half way down a barrel, then I would say that barrel is more than just worn out.

Donald
 
I have had handfuls of LC'07 ammo with no primer holes, sent them all back to the distributor. This was the same ammo we used in Iraq. Adam
 
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