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mike in co
Guest
no, it takes only seconds to make a precise measurement to .001
i may take several seconds to lay out the target for measurement.
mike in co
Please Read, Another Perspective on "Score Shooting"
- Thread starter jackie schmidt
- Start date
no, it takes only seconds to make a precise measurement to .001
i may take several seconds to lay out the target for measurement.
mike in co
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mike in co
Guest
consider an official outside dia for the 10 ring, a number used by all, a line from the dot thru the bullet hole, measure from opposite side of 10 ring to center of bullet hole( scribed rings like the sinclair tool) and subtract 1/2 of 10 ring dia...
and you have a number for jackie's system...
mike in co
and you have a number for jackie's system...
mike in co
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mike in co
Guest
consider adding a 10 ring etched circle to the sinclair tool( added to each current dia..a 10 around a 6mm etched circle). center on the 10 ring on the 10 ring, move jaws to center 6mm circle over the bullet hole......
bottom line it aint gonna be that hard....
mike inc o
bottom line it aint gonna be that hard....
mike inc o
Mike,
I will respectfully disagree. I said earlier that I have never scored a group match. However, I score VFS matches twice per month. When a shot is clearly not on a rine, it only takes a glance. When the reticle is involved, it takes quite a while to center the reticle and then determine whether or not it is actually touching an X or a ring. Frequently, it also involves a 2nd or 3rd opinion. As I said earlier, maybe someone can explain what I'm missing, but I can't see the kind of competitive measurements that are being suggested, getting done in "seconds".
Come to think of it, I thought you said a while back that you did not participate in sanctioned matches. Am I mistaken? Are you frequently involved in scoring targets?
Rick
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bob harrison
Guest
The one thing that nobody has said is; if the game is made hard enough will attendance drop? Who does that hurt ? The clubs and that should be the bottom line. I know several "shooters" who don't feel ready to compete yet with the "easy" targets we have now, make them harder folks who dabble in this game will fade away and everybody will be the worse.
jackie schmidt
New member
Lou
I talked to Gene Bukys about that very thing this afternoon.
What I picture is a scoring device like what we use now, only with two glass plates, on slides over the other. One is fixed to the non moving jaw on the dial caliper, and is scribed with a 1/2 inch circle that will center the tool on the mothball. The other plate, which will be centered with the first plate when the calipers are closed, will have the bullet hole diameter etched on it. This plate will be attached to the sliding jaw of the caliper.
Close the measuring device, center the 1/2 inch circle on the moth ball, then move the slide untill the bullet hole etched on the plate reticles the bullet hole. Look at the number on the dial. That's the score.
Of course, there will have to be a separate plate for 200 yards.
I am open for suggestions, anything that is user friendly, and clubs will not balk at because of expence.
........jackie
I talked to Gene Bukys about that very thing this afternoon.
What I picture is a scoring device like what we use now, only with two glass plates, on slides over the other. One is fixed to the non moving jaw on the dial caliper, and is scribed with a 1/2 inch circle that will center the tool on the mothball. The other plate, which will be centered with the first plate when the calipers are closed, will have the bullet hole diameter etched on it. This plate will be attached to the sliding jaw of the caliper.
Close the measuring device, center the 1/2 inch circle on the moth ball, then move the slide untill the bullet hole etched on the plate reticles the bullet hole. Look at the number on the dial. That's the score.
Of course, there will have to be a separate plate for 200 yards.
I am open for suggestions, anything that is user friendly, and clubs will not balk at because of expence.
........jackie
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mike in co
Guest
yep once a month...i pull out my handy tools and "score" boh group and score targets for a club match.
mike in co
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mike in co
Guest
but we are not talking score or rings in jackies plan,,,only distance to center....much simpler to measure.
mike in co
OK,
so we're talking about scoring both "group" & score in the same "club" match.
And we're talking that "measuring distance to center" is simpler to measure than group size or whether an X is touched by a bullet hole. And this is supposed to take less time than just looking at a target and seeing that 4 or 5 bullets clearly missed the X (one example)?
Sir, I believe that you are unclear on the concept......but I could be wrong. However, at this point, no one has stepped forward and shown me how. But then maybe your tools are just superior to what IBS has provided for me.
Rick
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mks
Guest
Just a suggestion - scribe concentric 1/2 and 1" circles on the plate attached to the fixed jaw, and 0.224, 0.243 and 0.308 circles on the plate attached to the moving jaw. This one tool would cover the vast majority of targets.
Keith
jackie schmidt
New member
Kieth
Thanks..........jackie
Thanks..........jackie
Played around with this a little. One sheet of lexan works fine.
Just like measuring group except you center the mothball in template. Push down pin on measuring tool so the calipers don't move. Open calipers till bullet hole is centered in reticle. First set is for .223, second for 6MM, third is for .30.
Just like measuring group except you center the mothball in template. Push down pin on measuring tool so the calipers don't move. Open calipers till bullet hole is centered in reticle. First set is for .223, second for 6MM, third is for .30.
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mike in co
Guest
i believe you are comparing apples to oranges..
in measuring group you must establish left and right bullet holes, and apply a tool and measure...a little time on each bullet hole to ensure centered.
in jackies plan one spot/hole position is pre-established and easy to center on, one only has to measure to the actual bullet hole......
no one said a thing about counting points...it was a discussion about how much/or how little time it would take to run jackies system.....minutes was mentioned....i simply said it was not so.....
i never said it was quicker than counting points.....
mike in co
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mike in co
Guest
you got it...Played around with this a little. One sheet of lexan works fine.
Just like measuring group except you center the mothball in template. Push down pin on measuring tool so the calipers don't move. Open calipers till bullet hole is centered in reticle. First set is for .223, second for 6MM, third is for .30.
and just how long would you take to measure a single sheet(5 holes) ?
mike in co
PERFECT, Now that looks like fun!
Think of all the different games you could play with one standard target and that measuring device.
If measuring 5 times per target is the holdup, do it like group where only the worst shot gets measured and counted for the target.
Precision score at its finest, and very fare to everyone, I like it!
jackie schmidt
New member
Aj
I am probably overthinking the thing. My idea of two plates was so the scorer could always be sure he was centered on the target's mothball.
But heck, in group shooting, you rely on the skill of the scorer to insure that his dial calipers do not slip when moving the reticle plate to the outside bullet hole.
So here it is. The real time involved is the fact that you have to score every mothball on each target sheet. I agree, that anybody who has scored Score Targets simply glances over those that are obvious, using the reticle only when there is a doubt. (I do score targets at our Club Matches).
So, it will take more real world time to score in this manner.
As with any scoring, there is a tolerance, and there can be "operator error". But, just as with all shooting, if a shooter sees that his "score" is overly big, there is the measurement protest at his disposal, just like in Group or regular score...........jackie
I am probably overthinking the thing. My idea of two plates was so the scorer could always be sure he was centered on the target's mothball.
But heck, in group shooting, you rely on the skill of the scorer to insure that his dial calipers do not slip when moving the reticle plate to the outside bullet hole.
So here it is. The real time involved is the fact that you have to score every mothball on each target sheet. I agree, that anybody who has scored Score Targets simply glances over those that are obvious, using the reticle only when there is a doubt. (I do score targets at our Club Matches).
So, it will take more real world time to score in this manner.
As with any scoring, there is a tolerance, and there can be "operator error". But, just as with all shooting, if a shooter sees that his "score" is overly big, there is the measurement protest at his disposal, just like in Group or regular score...........jackie
Wayne Shaw
Active member
I think this is a definite step in the right direction. From 22 to 30 caliber, closest to center is the game.
All you'd need is a moving backer system and you could have a Group tournament.
Adding layers of complexity to what should be a simple event isn't what you want to do, IMO. One of the biggest positives to Score shooting is that they're much easier to run than a Group event.
In the example above, the scorer will have to make five times the amount of measurements that they would in a Group tournament. A Group target has one measurement. A Score target done as outlined will have five measurements on it.
Here's some other numbers: A 30 shooter tournament, with a warm up match and five record matches, would require 900 measurements.
For one yardage.
To me, a better solution would be to simply decrease the size of the 10 ring and subsequent scoring rings.....that way the philospophy of Score shooting remains the same, the difficulty level increases and you're still rewarding the shooters that shoot closest to the center.
Adding layers of complexity to what should be a simple event isn't what you want to do, IMO. One of the biggest positives to Score shooting is that they're much easier to run than a Group event.
In the example above, the scorer will have to make five times the amount of measurements that they would in a Group tournament. A Group target has one measurement. A Score target done as outlined will have five measurements on it.
Here's some other numbers: A 30 shooter tournament, with a warm up match and five record matches, would require 900 measurements.
For one yardage.
To me, a better solution would be to simply decrease the size of the 10 ring and subsequent scoring rings.....that way the philospophy of Score shooting remains the same, the difficulty level increases and you're still rewarding the shooters that shoot closest to the center.
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