OUTLAW the Sporter barrels with Muzzle Devices?

P

Professor

Guest
After competing under several sanctioning bodies over the last 3 years I am somewhat bewildered at the attitude of the competitors. On a large number of occasions I have heard mentioned that the competitors are disappointed that more shooters are not choosing to compete in sanctioned matches even in the sporter classes. Many have stated something to the extent that if we could get others involved at the sporter level, they would ‘catch the shooting bug’ and move up to the heavier gun divisions.

When we look at the rules for RBA, ARA, & 50/50, is there any wonder that this is seen as a problem? Have we pushed our level of competition in the sporter divisions to a point of excluding the ‘run what you brung’ crowd?

Have we pandered to the rifle barrel makers and gunsmiths desire to make money on these one piece barrels with built in muzzle devices? While the 2 of the three sanctioning bodies plainly state “No vibration devices allowed.” Yet a check of rifles shooting in matches sanctioned by these bodies show that NOT to be the case. (IMO)

All one has to do is read anything to do with sporter contour barrels and you will run into the writings of a noted gunsmith from Indiana. Even he believes it to be a ‘MD’ (muzzle device) as stated in a large quantity of his postings as well as his published books.

I have run across postings here where there were shooters disqualified from matches for using barrels with this design, only to have the decisions reversed upon review. With the luxury of hindsight, is it time to reexamine this issue again?

While we are moaning about lack on new blood in the sport, has this action alone, been a MAJOR contributor the lack of new shooters in the sporter class?

Are we excluding our future for the sake of current competition? If we want this sport to grow, we need to be planting seeds along the way. Either another class or take a step back in the sporter class??

Just a question.

What are YOUR thoughts??



"Professor"


Rule Notes
RBA
CLASSES

A. Sporter
Rifle and scope must weigh 7 1/2 lbs. or under. Scopes limited to 6.5 power maximum. Variable scopes must be set at the legal power and taped by a referee. Rifle must be a repeater and must be capable of holding two or more rounds in a clip or magazine. Stock must be 2 1/4" or under at its widest point. Holes can not be drilled or cut in exterior of stock to make the legal weight. Rifle must be designed to be shoulder fired. No vibration tuning devices allowed. No electronic or mechanically assisted triggers allowed. Effective January 5, 2008, a magazine and safety are no longer required.

USRA (50/50)
SPORTER
Rifle and scope must weigh 7.50 lbs. or under. Scope must be 6.5 power or under. Variable scopes must be set at the legal power and taped by referee. Rifle must be a repeater and hold 2 or more rounds in a removable clip/magazine except for tubular fed rifles… No vibration devices allowed. Barrel must be made out of one piece of metal with no attachments except for the action and a nut to secure the barrel to the action. Sights are only allowed on factory barrels. No electronic or remotely actuated triggers.

ARA

10.0.0-- Sporter Class
10.1.0 Rests 10.1.1 One-Piece or two-piece rests are allowable of any material. 10.1.2 Rest may not be attached to the bench 10.1.3 Rifle may not be attached to the rest nor the bench in any fashion that would Impede the recoil of the rifle or return the rifle to battery. 10.2.0 Rifles 10.2.1 Unlimited Scope Power 10.2.2 Gun and Scope shall weigh 8.5 lbs or under 10.2.3 No electronic or mechanically assisted triggers are permitted 10.2.4 Rifle must be a repeater and must be able to hold 2 or more rounds in a removable clip/magazine except for tubular fed rifles. Rounds may be fed into the chamber either by hand or from the magazine. 10.2.5 Stock must be made of wood
7
10.2.6 Maximum stock width shall be 2.25” at the widest point of the stock. 10.2.7 The bottom of the stock that comes into contact with the rest must be convex….

10.2.9 Barrel must be made out of one piece of metal with no attachments except for what is needed to attach the barrel to the action
 
What was it, 1995 or thereabouts that Cooper brought out the IR 50 model 36 as a factory sporter rifle. You got a Jewell trigger and choice of a Shilen or Lilja barrel. It has been full speed ahead ever since. You could quickly become the most unpopular man at any match with that kind of suggestion. You willing to pay to rebarrel all the existing sporters?
 
There ya go Don......I was a "run what ya brunger" untill my will to win ( or try hard to win ) got me equipment to try just that. Benchrest is somewhat a sport of equipment as well as a high degree of Skill. And (imho) It's called Progress, & If ya can't beat um.......Join um!!! They make High quality sporter barrel's every day, by the book.....( one piece of steel ) muzzle work, or not.
And furthermore...my first look at a modern day sporter barrel with muzzle work scared the hell out of me, and yeah...I got beat from one end of the range to the other, but I got over it. Ed.
 
In Australia we also have a sporter "factory class" un modified rifle bought over the counter 3.5kg 6 X scope, it is a good and cheap entry into the sport then once the bug hits you progress with the big boys.
 
Where pray tell have any sporters with the so called "Calfee profile" been DQ'd? This has, for some time been very much a custom weight/ scope restricted class requiring the best equipment attainable. Based on the prospects and demand for 2 new sporter actions it frankly does'nt sound like too many complaints.
 
I still say an Auto class.
Tap into all those 10/22's - way more of those than the CZ's and such.
.920 bbl limit and maybe 16 or 24 on the scope??
You'd pluck at least a couple converts who watched the bolt guns go.
The logic of they can bring them now don't hold water - they ain't gonna go where they
KNOW they are going to get handled - you gotta give some hope.
This would work more at the club level than registered level.
Remember it's what they will think not you.
 
Sounds like bringing down a passing grade so more can graduate. One reason we don't see auto loaders at sanctioned matches is they cannot compete with custom bench rifles. Why lower the standard? If you want to start a sanctioned auto loader organization the only person stopping you is you. bob
 
This subject

is often beat to death in the winter but we are still somewhat in winter here in Maine, it seems anyway. The bottom line usually comes down to those who like the competition level offered in the currently organized Benchrest Games buy the equipment necessary to compete. Something I have noticed is most of our new shooters come from the ranks of the retired.

I think trying to beat the"entry Level" thing is useless because those who will participate in it will spend a lot of money making their "Factory" rifle compete. I see it about every time I run a match. Some one person shows with a "Factory" rifle competes against himself and expects some sort of award when the match is over.

Perhaps a solution is to make up some "IROC" type rifles; all the same, that shoot the same, and Rent them to folks who want to try the sport. I'll be willing to bet those who might be interested wouldn't spend the rental fee to try it.

In our case, there is a local dealer who shoots and who has a way of getting others to the matches. Perhaps we need to find out where his success comes from.

With regard to Sporter Barrels, I think it rediculous to allow a built in tuner vs a removable tuner. Perhaps there would be a few more Sporters that were more competative if we simply called a Spade a Spade and removed the tongue in cheek prohibition.
 
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Pete
I don't know how you could make the sporter class more competative. I haven't seen a sporter barrrel that is not in compliance with the rules in over five years as far as barrel specification go. The question I have is if you can build a sporter profile that will shoot 250s consistently why won't the same profile work on the big guns? Seen one with out a tuner lately? As for factory guns, if you shoot many matches in SC and WV you will likely be beat there by a factory Shul or 40x sooner or later. In my case its usually sooner.
 
Pete, there are a lot of great shooting sporters shooting great scores, just check out the scores on the sporter scoreline. The rules are fine just as they are. Whether with a tuner or without, the fact is not all barrels are created equal, even though the mfgs try hard to make them all great. Changing the sporter rules won't add to our ranks. It's a difficult sport to master, and it's expensive and frustrating at times, for all of us. It's never going to be a sport for anyone that isn't passionate about achieving the highest levels of accuracy with a rimfire rifle. Those who want to impress us with their great shooting factory rifle or custom 10/22 will not be around very long unless they are willing to jump off and join us in our pursuit, which means making the commitment in time and money. Unless one is very talented or lucky to have a great mentor, (and even then you'll only have success if you actually listen) it takes time to reach a certain level of success. I was doing this for about 7 years before I started to have any real success. If you think that a rule change will make you or anyone instantly competitive - you're wrong.
 
I guess I didn't make my point very well. I have been shooting Benchrest for around 18 years. I began in Rimfire for about 5 years and then into Centerfire. I got back into Rimfire so that I could continue to compete in Florida during the winter months. None of what either of you have said is lost on me. I know that there is no solution for the perceived lack of an entry point. I have been there and done that in both Rimfire and Centerfire.

My point is if allowing a " Dawg Knot", which is not very thinly disguised as a tuner is allowed, how is it any more or less righteous than a tuner that can be adjusted readily. They are adjusted by cutting them, aren't they? I certainly do understand it is all about the barrels. I have had three or four during my years so I know about them. The barrel on my sporter is pretty good but it is not nearly as good as your's Bill. You prove it about every match you shoot yours in. Now, I am not saying I can personally shoot up to your level. What might be interesting is if we were to swap rifles for a match to see if it is the barrel/ammo or the shooter. Are you up for that?
 
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Pre IR50 there was IBS group nationals sporter class. They limited how much a muzzle could be trimmed back , but it was done up to that limit by some and back boring occurred too. Anybody remember Bill Sink?
How many years has Anschutz had a dog knot? How many of them got backbored by enterprising gunsmiths? These activities predated the "invention" of the present sporter profile. As long as we are allowed to tinker there will be improvements.
 
Some one some time ago on one of these RF forums said that Rules and Rule Changes are put in for those who want a distinct advantage over their competition,now every time I hear that it makes me wonder what is it,and it may catch on for the sake of the poor betrotten new shooters that need this rule change to make them competitive!
 
Pete,

I think for many shooters the "dawg knot" counter sunk muzzle barrel may be an improvement over a barrel with an add-on adjustable tuner. You have previously said that you don't like to tune your rifle. Having a sporter barrel tuned by a talented 'smith that can't be re-tuned or rather un-tuned by the shooter may just be the better option. In any event, the sporter scores show that there is really nothing wrong with the sporter rules. Sporter scores have never been higher.

As for your suggestion that we swap sporters for a match. I don't think it would prove much. My barrel is really wind tolerant. Likely yours is more wind sensitive. I know my hold-offs - slight that they may be - very well. In most wind conditions you could just hold center and get a 10. It would likely take me some time to learn your rifles hold-offs. As such, there would no advantage for me to swap and seeing as how I don't shoot all that many matches in a year, I don't want to waste a chance to shoot a decent score. I have a goal of being near the top of the sporter scoreline. I would lend it to you if we ever find a match with a couple sporter relays or at some practice session before or after a match.
 
I guess I really don't understand the problem, this barrel design came from the late 1800's then went away until BC brought it back as HIS GREAT NEW DESIGN, and if you think about it the only muzzle devices were his first ones when he made them two piece,
the barrels now are all one piece as required by the rules!!!!!

Pete
 
Bill B said:
Pete,

I think for many shooters the "dawg knot" counter sunk muzzle barrel may be an improvement over a barrel with an add-on adjustable tuner. You have previously said that you don't like to tune your rifle. Having a sporter barrel tuned by a talented 'smith that can't be re-tuned or rather un-tuned by the shooter may just be the better option. In any event, the sporter scores show that there is really nothing wrong with the sporter rules. Sporter scores have never been higher.

As for your suggestion that we swap sporters for a match. I don't think it would prove much. My barrel is really wind tolerant. Likely yours is more wind sensitive. I know my hold-offs - slight that they may be - very well. In most wind conditions you could just hold center and get a 10. It would likely take me some time to learn your rifles hold-offs. As such, there would no advantage for me to swap and seeing as how I don't shoot all that many matches in a year, I don't want to waste a chance to shoot a decent score. I have a goal of being near the top of the sporter scoreline. I would lend it to you if we ever find a match with a couple sporter relays or at some practice session before or after a match.
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I understand Bil and appreciate your offer. This is one of thos situations where I reallllly don't care what they do with Dawg Knots or whatever. I just like to see things like this discussed and sometimes try to play the Devil's Advocate to have a conversation about it is all. My Sporter probably shoot a lot better than I am able to shoot it. It has been pretty good to me so far so I am not in a rush to re-barrel it.

I have never seen the harm of discussing anything but a lot of people come totally unglued. I don't understant that, I must say. It's as if someone suggested we denounce America sometimes. Discussion is a good thing, in my view. I am not yet old enough to fear change I guess but I realize I am getting there :).
 
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