Opinion on Benchmark 2 grooves barrel

tim said:
Kevin,

On another forum, in a faw away place some of the recent discussion involving Lapua suggests possible changes to bullet design that might benefit performance. Any thoughts on the matter?
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Tim;

Thanks for putting me in the hot seat! The problem with being on the team is that even if I did have an opinion (and I do) it is dismissed by most because of the support I receive. I can certainly understand that point of view.

I won the Nationals in 2008 with Eley, and was offered a sponsorship the same year (with the current product which, to my knowledge has not changed since that time). I did a significant amount of testing that year (as I do every year) - I would never have accepted a sponsorship if the product was not better than the performance criteria I had come to expect from Eley (and everything else I test). I really hope they don't change it. I have invested a large amount of time and I really don't want to start over. I also believe that the round nosed bullet has advantages in high wind conditions.

To be very blunt - when unqualified people meddle with design, we get products like Eley SA ammunition. Additionally, I believe that the EPS bullet was "redesigned" somewhere in the middle of the current production run which again, I thought was a mistake. The initial EPS bullet design was amazing, and needed no "enhancement", it was and is true innovation. I purchased three cases of very early EPS (in the clear boxes with the red plastic retainer) that was some of the best ammunition I ever had. I still keep several bricks of it for datum testing and performance verification.

It is tough to seperate the wheat from the chaff - there is so much misinformation out there, and some people offering opinion not based in any fact or practical science.

My opinion on chambers is changing too. Lapua ammunition has always performed well for me in the chambers optimized for Eley ammunition (using 2 degree leade angles), but better chamber configurations for this particular ammunition exist.

My apologies for the fractured post Tim - this is a topic I have some passion for, and I have not been a fan of past events (as stated above).

All the best,

kev
 
Az_Speed said:
When was newer? Did they actually change the Center X or are these special batches? Thank you.

Steve
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Hi Steve:

To my knowledge, no changes have been made to the product since the introduction of the current ammunition line (around 2007 / 2008).

There have always been some very good lots of Center X out there!

kev
 
kevinnevius said:
Tim;

Thanks for putting me in the hot seat! The problem with being on the team is that even if I did have an opinion (and I do) it is dismissed by most because of the support I receive. I can certainly understand that point of view.

I won the Nationals in 2008 with Eley, and was offered a sponsorship the same year (with the current product which, to my knowledge has not changed since that time). I did a significant amount of testing that year (as I do every year) - I would never have accepted a sponsorship if the product was not better than the performance criteria I had come to expect from Eley (and everything else I test). I really hope they don't change it. I have invested a large amount of time and I really don't want to start over. I also believe that the round nosed bullet has advantages in high wind conditions.

To be very blunt - when unqualified people meddle with design, we get products like Eley SA ammunition. Additionally, I believe that the EPS bullet was "redesigned" somewhere in the middle of the current production run which again, I thought was a mistake. The initial EPS bullet design was amazing, and needed no "enhancement", it was and is true innovation. I purchased three cases of very early EPS (in the clear boxes with the red plastic retainer) that was some of the best ammunition I ever had. I still keep several bricks of it for datum testing and performance verification.

It is tough to seperate the wheat from the chaff - there is so much misinformation out there, and some people offering opinion not based in any fact or practical science.

My opinion on chambers is changing too. Lapua ammunition has always performed well for me in the chambers optimized for Eley ammunition (using 2 degree leade angles), but better chamber configurations for this particular ammunition exist.

My apologies for the fractured post Tim - this is a topic I have some passion for, and I have not been a fan of past events (as stated above).

All the best,

kev
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I really appreciate it, however let me explain. The comments I referenced were not so much our domestic BR folks as much as a few international ISSF shooters that weigh in . It seems that the considerations are not for pushing towards an EPS type slug but more evolutionary , as in grease groves, etc, allowing improved wax carrying . All this with the understanding that if something is in the works you may not be at liberty to discuss.
 
Collets for rechambering

Pete Wass said:
I have been wondering if it is feasible to true up a section of the barrel as one does the machine work for chamber and crown work, to be concentric with the trued bore so that a collet could be used for future work on the barrels(s). I don't know if collets are accurate enough so that not having to re-zero every time would be necessary. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks,

Pete
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I've never chambered a rimfire barrel(I'll be doing 2 this winter), but a chamber needs to be perfectly centered in the bore/groove of the barrel. That said, it is pretty common that small holes do drift when deep hole drilling them at the barrel maker. All the chambers that I have cut in the last 15-18 yrs are done in the headstock of my lathe and are indicated in to .0001-.0002(both ends). I used to do threading, then run barrel in steady rest, but that was a lot of work. What made me change was a barrel that had a crooked hole and when I set up to crown the hole was going around in circles. So I made a small chuck to go on the other end of my spindle. Now I put the barrel in to cut for rough barrel length. Face it off and put 60 degree center. Flip barrel and do everything in one setup. I continually check the r/o after each step(threading, c'boring before chambering). I've been very blessed as I've not had a bad barrel since.
p.s. That barrel with that crooked hole shot like you would not believe. It was in 6ppc. and I had some good groups.
 
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tim said:
I really appreciate it, however let me explain. The comments I referenced were not so much our domestic BR folks as much as a few international ISSF shooters that weigh in . It seems that the considerations are not for pushing towards an EPS type slug but more evolutionary , as in grease groves, etc, allowing improved wax carrying . All this with the understanding that if something is in the works you may not be at liberty to discuss.
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Tim;

Thanks, if there is something in the works, I am not aware of it. I have had a chance to talk with product development (they are opportunities I never though I would have in a million years!). They are great to work with, but I know of nothing in development at this time. That surely doesnt mean there isn't something out there though!

Eley, for reasons I will not share an opinion on, has dominated the US market. Most of the rifles (BR and position) are setup specifically for it. IMHO it is not a rational expectation to think that people will try the ammunition in a system not specifically setup for it and get the same results - even though I used the Eley chamber with this ammunition with great results. Again IMHO - Lapua ammunition has always been excellent, it just needs the same amount of optimization so many have dedicated to Eley's products. There are very real gains to be had with this product line.

On very rare occasion I am asked not to release information, but this one is not one of them.

I am certainly very happy about Mr. Barnhart's and Mr. Cameron's successes, it was only a matter of time (IMHO) before someone very talented used it successfully. And I certainly agree, more competition in the marketplace (and more options) are a very good thing. There are too many people (seemingly with some sort of agenda) eliminating our choices before we can make up our OWN minds!

Have a great weekend,

kev
 
Kevin,
Thanks very much, I wasn't sure but figured I'd ask.

Also, while this is not the ideal venue, for those that don't know, the new American Rifleman is out, with a Camp Perry review, Kevin a belated congrats for tearing them up at Perry, were very lucky to have you weigh in here from time to time.
 
Kevin,

As you may or may not know, about 10 years ago the Lapua Midas in the gold boxes was the top ammo. It seemed most people shot it, including myself. Then they changed their priming compound or something and their accuracy dropped off. At about the same time, Eley improved their ammo and became top dog. Over the years, we've been told that "Lapua is back" I know I wasted money testing and buying it after just such a proclamation. Last year I did buy some Center X that I had the opportunity to test and had some limited success with it. It shoots well on hot, calm days and I keep it around to have in my ammo box to try under such conditions. But on average, it's Eley that I'm interested in because there are still new lots available that shoot well enough to win. Now if Eley slips, and we can't find competitive ammo from them, you can bet that we'll be looking elsewhere. But as you stated, many of our rifles are already set-up for Eley. Mfg. have to realize that it's hard to earn back a good reputation, once you've let it slip. A few more big wins by various shooters using it, (such that the rest of us will think that we'll all have opportunity to get into some good Lapua) will go a long way to help Lapua re-gain our confidence.
 
Bill B said:
Kevin,

As you may or may not know, about 10 years ago the Lapua Midas in the gold boxes was the top ammo. It seemed most people shot it, including myself. Then they changed their priming compound or something and their accuracy dropped off. At about the same time, Eley improved their ammo and became top dog. Over the years, we've been told that "Lapua is back" I know I wasted money testing and buying it after just such a proclamation. Last year I did buy some Center X that I had the opportunity to test and had some limited success with it. It shoots well on hot, calm days and I keep it around to have in my ammo box to try under such conditions. But on average, it's Eley that I'm interested in because there are still new lots available that shoot well enough to win. Now if Eley slips, and we can't find competitive ammo from them, you can bet that we'll be looking elsewhere. But as you stated, many of our rifles are already set-up for Eley. Mfg. have to realize that it's hard to earn back a good reputation, once you've let it slip. A few more big wins by various shooters using it, (such that the rest of us will think that we'll all have opportunity to get into some good Lapua) will go a long way to help Lapua re-gain our confidence.
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Hi Bill - thanks for the post.

Having been a competitor for almost 30 years, I am well aware of the cyclical nature of ammunition quality. The reason Lapua Gold Box (and Dominator before it) rose to prominence was that Eley was mediocre at best throughout this period. I personally tested hundreds of lots of Tenex, Tenex Lite, etc thru the 80's (thank God for Lapua and R50). Maybe you are too young to remember this............my point is that (for a myriad of reasons) market share shifts.

Those who remember Tenex "paperbox" will attest to the epic failure of the ammunition that followed it.

Lapua moved production, and revamped the current line around 2008. it has not changed since it's re-release. The quality didn't just happen this year with some big BR wins............it has always been there. As I mentioned in a previous post, people are testing this ammunition in rifles specifically setup for something else. If you want to explore the true accuracy potential of this ammunition, it will take some of the same effort competitors dedicated to Eley.

I have had several years to experiment with chamber profiles for this ammunition (and a large statistically significant amount of barrels tested), and can tell you it is amazing stuff. It is already amazing in Eley chambers..........and it only gets better in profiles tailored to the specific bullet profile.

Additionally (I am sure you already know this) evey barrel is it's own anomoly (regarding ammunition performance in certain weather / atmospheric conditions). I have not experienced condition sensitivity as you mentioned, although for specific barrels I am sure it would exist. In my experience, I see less wind drift with this bullet profile than the EPS profile, and less heat sensitivity. That has been my experience (and we prone shooters are forced to shoot in some markedly bad and variable conditions).

This is just my opinion (please) - rimfire BR has introduced brand loyalty the like of which I have never seen. I believe the largest part of the market share Eley enjoys is due to several key individuals, and the seemingly unquestionable opinions they offer (with their undisclosed affiliations). I have not seen the likes of this in my competitive career, and do not see this bias as good for the sport in any way. It has hurt some great manufacturers, and limited the products we are exposed to (and some of the ability we should have had to test and judge for ourselves).

IMHO I believe you will see more big wins with Lapua ammunition - especially since the "flock" has been shown they have had options all along.

All the best,

kev
 
Kevin, I'll take your and Mike's word that Lapua is making some good ammo at this time. BR shooters like to win, no different than position shooters and we shoot in some pretty windy conditions too. My experience is that Eley handles the wind better than that CenterX I bought. When Lapua lost it's edge we jumped ship to Eley faster than a blink. If Eley was to lose it's edge, we would all be looking at Lapua or RWS. As you pointed out, our rifles have chambers that are designed to shoot Eley. I know I can find Eley that shoots well, so why look elsewhere? Most BR shooters are shooting Eley and a quick look at the scores that are being put up show there is still plenty good Eley to be had. The scores seemingly keep getting better every year. If some shooters choose to chamber barrels for Lapua or RWS and start to dominate this game, there will be a stampede of shooters doing the same thing. I don't shoot Eley cause anyone is pushing it, I don't get it free, and I don't have a buddy selling it. I shoot it cause it delivers for me. I have most of a case of Lapua Master M that I bought because one of the sellers a number of years ago was telling us Lapua was back on top of it's game. I have a Cooper sporter that always preferred Lapua so I keep it around to plink with it in my Cooper or to pop a funny acting raccoon.
 
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Kevin,
I finally had the time to deepen the chamber on the spare BM2 that was threaded for the Myers/Stiller action, and the damm thing started shooting bug holes with either the Lapua or the Ely ammo. without a tuner, after about 200 rounds, with no fliers, I decided to pull the barrel off from the Turbo and do the same. I ended with .062 sticking out from the tip of the cone to the back of the case ( rim thickness included ) same reamer 1 1/2 lead, I had a tuner on it, and left it at the same setting as before, and the BM2 started shooting extremely good. It actually shot the Ely a little better than the Lapua. I fired two USBR targets, scored a 246 7x with the Ely Match, and 244 8x with Center X with no weird shots, all the 9's were either left or right due to conditions, but NO LOW SHOTS, I am very happy with the results.
All I can say is thank you very much for your advise, and by the way, kind of late, but congratulations on your shooting at Perry, and also congratulations to Mike Cameron on your win.
Just for the hell of it, I am going to go another .030" deeper on the BM2 barrel on the Myers action to see what happens, I will leave the Turbo alone for a while.
Happy New Year.
Evelio.
 
Evelio said:
Kevin,
I finally had the time to deepen the chamber on the spare BM2 that was threaded for the Myers/Stiller action, and the damm thing started shooting bug holes with either the Lapua or the Ely ammo. without a tuner, after about 200 rounds, with no fliers, I decided to pull the barrel off from the Turbo and do the same. I ended with .062 sticking out from the tip of the cone to the back of the case ( rim thickness included ) same reamer 1 1/2 lead, I had a tuner on it, and left it at the same setting as before, and the BM2 started shooting extremely good. It actually shot the Ely a little better than the Lapua. I fired two USBR targets, scored a 246 7x with the Ely Match, and 244 8x with Center X with no weird shots, all the 9's were either left or right due to conditions, but NO LOW SHOTS, I am very happy with the results.
All I can say is thank you very much for your advise, and by the way, kind of late, but congratulations on your shooting at Perry, and also congratulations to Mike Cameron on your win.
Just for the hell of it, I am going to go another .030" deeper on the BM2 barrel on the Myers action to see what happens, I will leave the Turbo alone for a while.
Happy New Year.
Evelio.
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Evelio:

Thanks for the update - I am really glad you have had some success with the changes!

That is the key though, if I tried to get too much engraving with this leade angle, it was never good for consistency. Barrels would put several in the same hole, and pitch one out of the group (in addition to falling off sharply as the round count increased). Right now, I am still at approx .090" engraving with this leade (approx .130" from the barrel datum to the back of the case). This is the point where I saw great consistency and accuracy (so I stopped there). One of the other reasons I tried to get as much contact as I could was barrel life (my thinking was that erosion would come into play more quickly with less engraving), but my experience was like yours. A ittle less engraving still produced very good accuracy.

All the best in 2014,

kev
 
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