I don't get it? Both days shooting this load were cool days under 60 degrees. 39.3 grs of IMR 4007 behind Berger 80gr VLDs.(22-250AI) Thought I found my load. Shooting at a 10" gong 400 yards on a cool day I was hitting it consistently. Yesterday at local rifle range with perfectly clean bbl 1st 4 shots just fine. Fired a 80 gr A-max with this load and the bolt locked up.( it camed open but had to beat it a couple of wacks with my hand to extract) then I went back and fired a Berger and the same thing?????? Both days were mild conditions, sweat shirt weather. Shooter on snipers hide who has exact bbl posted a load of his as 43grs of RE#22 behind 80 gr Bereger VLD getting 3,399 FPS . BBL 26" 8"twist Rock 5R bbl
One day load is fine,next day the bolt needs to be beat to extract
- Thread starter Worker
- Start date
Roger T
Member
How long was the cartridge sitting in the chamber ? It's possible you heat soaked it, thereby raising the effective temp to well above the 60deg. ambient air temp. If your loads are on the edge it's not a good idea to let them sit in a hot/warm chamber. The brass soaks up heat very quickley.
I doubt ambient temp was the problem, 60* F to shirt sleeve weather isn`t much change. I think the load is just too much, and it took a couple shots fired to show. Hodgdon lists 36.5 gr of IMR4007 with a 70 gr bullet. Your load is about 10% heavier with a bullet almost 10% heavier. I don`t believe that AI case capasity is much over 10% that of the std case.
As for the guy on Snipershide. He has a barrel "similar to" yours by the same maker. The chamber, throat, headspace, ect are very likely different then yours. The brass, primers and bullet lots are not the same as yours and the powder R22 in much faster then IMR4007ssc and is in no way the same as yours. You just can`t compare two different powders in them.
I`d back down.....JMO
L
Larry Willis
Guest
1.) Don't assume load information for another rifle will be safe in your rifle.
2.) Refer to a loading manual and reduce your load.
3.) Verify that your full length resizing is done properly.
- Innovative
2.) Refer to a loading manual and reduce your load.
3.) Verify that your full length resizing is done properly.
- Innovative
Just walked in the door from the Rifle range.
Thanks men for comments .Shooting 80gr A-max My bbl was squeaky clean starting out. Foul the BBL with 5 55gr V-max loads of 44.0 of W-W 760 1st shot was 3,760 2nd 3825 the last 3 were 3,900+ nice clover leaf group. I loaded up 5 loads with Re#22 starting at 39.0 to 41.0 I rnd each to make sure rifle could handle it. No problems of any kind in extraction MV from 3125 to 3200. Then 3 rnds of 41.5 MV of about 3225 just under 1 MOA no problems. Next 42gr for about 3 290 group getting tighter again no problems. Then 4rnds of 42.5 MV of 3,340 average. Nice tight 1/2 MOA group. Very happy. Then 43.0 and the velocity about 3,450 wow but extraction was hard. 2nd round 3,472 and the both was stuck but I was able to pull it free. Well that was the limit.( I'll pull those bullets) Then I fired that same load using Berger 80gr VLD No problems at all with extraction and first shot was 3,507 !!!! I was able to fire all 5 rnds. Velocity was all over the place and the group was 1 1/2 . This is after firing 30 rnds with out cleaning. Any how I think its a no brainer that the 42.5 gr behind the A-max is the load. So what do you all think?
Thanks men for comments .Shooting 80gr A-max My bbl was squeaky clean starting out. Foul the BBL with 5 55gr V-max loads of 44.0 of W-W 760 1st shot was 3,760 2nd 3825 the last 3 were 3,900+ nice clover leaf group. I loaded up 5 loads with Re#22 starting at 39.0 to 41.0 I rnd each to make sure rifle could handle it. No problems of any kind in extraction MV from 3125 to 3200. Then 3 rnds of 41.5 MV of about 3225 just under 1 MOA no problems. Next 42gr for about 3 290 group getting tighter again no problems. Then 4rnds of 42.5 MV of 3,340 average. Nice tight 1/2 MOA group. Very happy. Then 43.0 and the velocity about 3,450 wow but extraction was hard. 2nd round 3,472 and the both was stuck but I was able to pull it free. Well that was the limit.( I'll pull those bullets) Then I fired that same load using Berger 80gr VLD No problems at all with extraction and first shot was 3,507 !!!! I was able to fire all 5 rnds. Velocity was all over the place and the group was 1 1/2 . This is after firing 30 rnds with out cleaning. Any how I think its a no brainer that the 42.5 gr behind the A-max is the load. So what do you all think?
L
Larry Willis
Guest
It takes more than one tight group to decide on an accurate load. See what you can do with 3 consecutive 5 shot groups before you celebrate. What do your primers look like?
This picture (from my website) at www.larrywillis.com explains the pressure signs to look for. You need to discover why your bolt is sticking. I recommend full length resizing to avoid problems with chambering and extraction. However, it should be done correctly. Sometimes that means going beyond the instructions that came with your dies.
- Innovative
This picture (from my website) at www.larrywillis.com explains the pressure signs to look for. You need to discover why your bolt is sticking. I recommend full length resizing to avoid problems with chambering and extraction. However, it should be done correctly. Sometimes that means going beyond the instructions that came with your dies.
- Innovative
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Larry Willis
Guest
How can you possibly screw your resizing die down farther than your shellholder allows?
- Innovative
- Innovative
M
Montana Pete
Guest
Larry Willis--
I see one cratered primer in your photo. I don't see any blown-out primers, and I don't see any case with a burnished patch on the face where metal extruded into the extractor recess.
This photo may be of some value, but it certainly shows nothing that is severe.
I see one cratered primer in your photo. I don't see any blown-out primers, and I don't see any case with a burnished patch on the face where metal extruded into the extractor recess.
This photo may be of some value, but it certainly shows nothing that is severe.
L
Larry Willis
Guest
Pete ........
I try to avoid those severe situations when reloading. If your develop handloads according to a reloading manual, and you observe these increasing pressure signs, you should never experience the danger of a blown primer. The primer on the far right is a VERY HOT load. Approach that pressure slowly and with caution. Some calibers can develope maximum loads quickly. The 22-250 is one of them.
- Innovative
I try to avoid those severe situations when reloading. If your develop handloads according to a reloading manual, and you observe these increasing pressure signs, you should never experience the danger of a blown primer. The primer on the far right is a VERY HOT load. Approach that pressure slowly and with caution. Some calibers can develope maximum loads quickly. The 22-250 is one of them.
- Innovative
DR4NRA
New member
Joe S,
you are right on case capacity of the 22.250 AI, it is almost but not quite the same case capacity of the 220 swift, in fact its design I do believe was to put the 22.250 in the same velocity realm as the Swift. So good call.
Worker is getting velocitys out of a 26" bbl using 80gr pills that I can only find out of rifles using 29 and 30 " bbls and 70gr pills.
He is also getting velocitys that are only in the range of a 55gr pill out of a case of that capacity. (55 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .224" 2.680" 37.0 3286 37,900 CUP 42.0 3771 52,900 CUP.) This is a published load for the 220 Swift off hodgdons site. By comparison he is over the max load for a 70gr pill of IMR 4007 by 2grs. (70 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .224" 2.680" 34.0 3066 46,600 CUP 37.8 3320 53,100 CUP).
Going by case capacity, velocitys obtained for size of pill, to published loads of calibers very similar, I would have to go with Willis and Joe that the loads are way too Hot and should be backed down for safety reasons.
Description of a 22.250AI,
About 1937 a man named Gebby and an associate, J.B. Smith completed the work on the wildcat 22-250, simply the 250 Savage case necked down to .224 with a 28 degree shoulder. Some years later, P.O. Ackley increased the 22-250’s case capacity by re-forming it by almost eliminating its body taper and giving it a 40 degree shoulder. Case capacity essentially duplicates that of the 220 Swift.
HTH
DR
you are right on case capacity of the 22.250 AI, it is almost but not quite the same case capacity of the 220 swift, in fact its design I do believe was to put the 22.250 in the same velocity realm as the Swift. So good call.
Worker is getting velocitys out of a 26" bbl using 80gr pills that I can only find out of rifles using 29 and 30 " bbls and 70gr pills.
He is also getting velocitys that are only in the range of a 55gr pill out of a case of that capacity. (55 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .224" 2.680" 37.0 3286 37,900 CUP 42.0 3771 52,900 CUP.) This is a published load for the 220 Swift off hodgdons site. By comparison he is over the max load for a 70gr pill of IMR 4007 by 2grs. (70 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .224" 2.680" 34.0 3066 46,600 CUP 37.8 3320 53,100 CUP).
Going by case capacity, velocitys obtained for size of pill, to published loads of calibers very similar, I would have to go with Willis and Joe that the loads are way too Hot and should be backed down for safety reasons.
Description of a 22.250AI,
About 1937 a man named Gebby and an associate, J.B. Smith completed the work on the wildcat 22-250, simply the 250 Savage case necked down to .224 with a 28 degree shoulder. Some years later, P.O. Ackley increased the 22-250’s case capacity by re-forming it by almost eliminating its body taper and giving it a 40 degree shoulder. Case capacity essentially duplicates that of the 220 Swift.
HTH
DR
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Larry Elliott
Guest
Just because the bullets weigh the same doesn't mean that the same powder charge can be used. I don't have any of the bullets in question on hand and don't have any pictures of them side by side, but I'd be willing to bet that the Berger's have a shorter shank than the A-Max's and consequently less bearing surface. When you're dealing with heavy bullets in .22's you can't just substitute bullets of the same weight without working up from below.
In rifles I've tried them in 68 gr Hornady's, and 69 gr Nosler's and Sierra's all have different "max" charges, and I'm sure it's only worse with heavier bullets.
In rifles I've tried them in 68 gr Hornady's, and 69 gr Nosler's and Sierra's all have different "max" charges, and I'm sure it's only worse with heavier bullets.
Worked up loads with IMR4007 pushing 80 gr Bergers
DR4NRA Loads for the 55gr V-max I got out of current Sierra manual.My BBL maker said his bbls are a "little" bit faster then others ( Rock 5R 8"twist cut rifled BBL) My loads for the 80 gr Bergers were started at 36grs and worked up .5 till I reached 39.3. So I fired 1st session 20 of those loads at a gong 400 yds and was hitting it. Couple months later ( 3/7/09) After bbl was fouled with 5 shots the bolt locked up twice ? So I pulled all the bullets and started with Re# 22 starting at 39grs and working up to 43. 42.5 produced a .400 size group.That's resting the rifle in a Cadwell tack driver rest and the bbl is a sporter weight. Average MV of 3,350 FPS. Problem 43grs of Re#22 produced some resistance in extraction in 1 of 3 shots. ( A-Max) but none shooting the Bergers but the velocity spread was extreme 3,507 ,3,472,3,432,3,343 3,390. At this point rifle had 33 rounds through it with out cleaning. Could this be the cause of this spread?
DR4NRA Loads for the 55gr V-max I got out of current Sierra manual.My BBL maker said his bbls are a "little" bit faster then others ( Rock 5R 8"twist cut rifled BBL) My loads for the 80 gr Bergers were started at 36grs and worked up .5 till I reached 39.3. So I fired 1st session 20 of those loads at a gong 400 yds and was hitting it. Couple months later ( 3/7/09) After bbl was fouled with 5 shots the bolt locked up twice ? So I pulled all the bullets and started with Re# 22 starting at 39grs and working up to 43. 42.5 produced a .400 size group.That's resting the rifle in a Cadwell tack driver rest and the bbl is a sporter weight. Average MV of 3,350 FPS. Problem 43grs of Re#22 produced some resistance in extraction in 1 of 3 shots. ( A-Max) but none shooting the Bergers but the velocity spread was extreme 3,507 ,3,472,3,432,3,343 3,390. At this point rifle had 33 rounds through it with out cleaning. Could this be the cause of this spread?
DR4NRA
New member
Worker,
First off, I didnt have a problem with your 55gr loadings, sounds like a good load, just havent used WW-760 in years. I have found that load in 7 diffrent manuals and other resources. As I dont own a 22.250AI I can only compare it either my 22.250s , or to that of my Swift. The Swift is closer.
Now as far as the problems you are having has been that you have had to beat the bolt open on a couple of occasions with your hand. Round inserts with no resistance, After firing, easy bolt lift, stiff to hard extraction.
These are common signs of pressure. Whether it be from seating depths, primer changes, to over charges, to a number of things that other posters have brought up. Its still pressure.
The loads you are describing, are just a little too hot for the weight, length of bullet, case capacity and powder charge at the high end. Just my opinion.
Now for extreme spreads, I really have no answer on that, cleaning may be it, or maybe its due to a sporter barrel, the possibilities have no limits.
good luck
DR
First off, I didnt have a problem with your 55gr loadings, sounds like a good load, just havent used WW-760 in years. I have found that load in 7 diffrent manuals and other resources. As I dont own a 22.250AI I can only compare it either my 22.250s , or to that of my Swift. The Swift is closer.
Now as far as the problems you are having has been that you have had to beat the bolt open on a couple of occasions with your hand. Round inserts with no resistance, After firing, easy bolt lift, stiff to hard extraction.
These are common signs of pressure. Whether it be from seating depths, primer changes, to over charges, to a number of things that other posters have brought up. Its still pressure.
The loads you are describing, are just a little too hot for the weight, length of bullet, case capacity and powder charge at the high end. Just my opinion.
Now for extreme spreads, I really have no answer on that, cleaning may be it, or maybe its due to a sporter barrel, the possibilities have no limits.
good luck
DR
S
sbhg
Guest
i too have a 22-250ai, rem.700, shilen 1-14 brl, installed @ http://www.ahlmans.com/ many years ago.
i think someone asked about your sizing die, i had to grind .010"+/- from the top of my shell holder so i could size the case correctly. w/o that and since the die sizes the body down .009" at the shoulder, the case would actually grow when fl sizing. i ended up buying a bullet comparator and using the 30 cal. hole, i would check the length from the head to the center of the shoulder face (?). then adjust the die so it would size the case down .002" from the fired length. this cured my prob's w/ firing, then hard/brass scraping/loosening the extractor ejections. and using reg. 22-250 loading data, there is no case trimming (40 deg. shoulder), i was told that is the major advantage w/ the ai chambers. i have many targets w/ 5 shots in the
.03-.05's range.
i think someone asked about your sizing die, i had to grind .010"+/- from the top of my shell holder so i could size the case correctly. w/o that and since the die sizes the body down .009" at the shoulder, the case would actually grow when fl sizing. i ended up buying a bullet comparator and using the 30 cal. hole, i would check the length from the head to the center of the shoulder face (?). then adjust the die so it would size the case down .002" from the fired length. this cured my prob's w/ firing, then hard/brass scraping/loosening the extractor ejections. and using reg. 22-250 loading data, there is no case trimming (40 deg. shoulder), i was told that is the major advantage w/ the ai chambers. i have many targets w/ 5 shots in the
.03-.05's range.
A couple items....maybe pertinent.
Regarding extreme spread the ONLY way to bring it way down is to weigh each individual load.... for starters. Once every load is a weighed charge, not a thrown charge, THEN there are some tricks ........ but the basic rule is, weigh every load.
On this note. For many years I only weighed the charges while working up the load. I'd write down everything, set the thrower where I wanted to be and throw my bulk charges.
2 things happened: #1, I never could get the ES down like others and #2 I was all'atime getting unexplained over-pressures and hot loads.
It wasn't until I started routinely WEIGHING everything that it really was driven home that powder throwers ARE NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH for loading to the top of the load workup. Unless you use only ball powder you MUST weigh everything when attempting to run near the top of the scale.
I've tested many throwers.
MANY people here on BRC have tested MANY powder throwers.
These and others' tests have been written up here and elsewhere for 15yrs now......
The results are unanimous, don't trust the thrower when running hot and rermember that the powder thrower is very much affected by technique. A person can expect as much as a full grain of difference in his throw from session to session and onl;y scrupulous technique coupled with a short-grained powder will keep you within a half-grain on any given day.
As I said, maybe pertinent, maybe not but it's 2 more sense!
50 of these and you'll have a dollar....
al
Regarding extreme spread the ONLY way to bring it way down is to weigh each individual load.... for starters. Once every load is a weighed charge, not a thrown charge, THEN there are some tricks ........ but the basic rule is, weigh every load.
On this note. For many years I only weighed the charges while working up the load. I'd write down everything, set the thrower where I wanted to be and throw my bulk charges.
2 things happened: #1, I never could get the ES down like others and #2 I was all'atime getting unexplained over-pressures and hot loads.
It wasn't until I started routinely WEIGHING everything that it really was driven home that powder throwers ARE NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH for loading to the top of the load workup. Unless you use only ball powder you MUST weigh everything when attempting to run near the top of the scale.
I've tested many throwers.
MANY people here on BRC have tested MANY powder throwers.
These and others' tests have been written up here and elsewhere for 15yrs now......
The results are unanimous, don't trust the thrower when running hot and rermember that the powder thrower is very much affected by technique. A person can expect as much as a full grain of difference in his throw from session to session and onl;y scrupulous technique coupled with a short-grained powder will keep you within a half-grain on any given day.
As I said, maybe pertinent, maybe not but it's 2 more sense!
50 of these and you'll have a dollar....al
short answer, NO.
A dirty or wet CHAMBER could be the cause..... If you're not swabbing out the chamber with Ronsonol or alcohol each cleaning, or at the least carefully dry-patching it to squeaky clean..... or if your neck is crudded up enough to allow your casenecks to crimp onto the bullets, then you will get spikes. But NO, barrel fouling will not cause you to show wild pressure swings.
This should get me flamed
but it is fact.The most common cause of spiking on the high end is simply too-hot loads. I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm 3 grains (or FIVE!) over the hottest load in the book and my Odd-Six is shooting like a 3-Hunnerd Winnie..." and then WAKKk'k, lockup. When doing load workup over a chronograph it's important to note when the up-up-up cycle plateaus. What'll happen is you'll be going up powder/velocity clik-clik-clik in lockstep and then the velocity will "plateau" or kinda' lag back.... more powder, NO big gain..... this is when spiking occurs. You must stay well below the plateau AND allow for some temp variance, remembering that most powders will pick up significant pressure/velocity from say 50degrees to 80degrees.
al