Not trying to start a firestorm but
- Thread starter Redrock
- Start date
R. G. Robinett
New member
Steve, here's a dysfunctional look at it . . .
You CAN shoot your HV rig in NBRSA HV group tournamnets - closest to you would be Don Deckert's (Prairie Dog Target Club,Porcupine, SD), or, Minetonka Game and Fish Club, just North of Minneapolis, MN, near Elk River.
If your rig weighs 10.5#, you can shoot it in both LV and HV NBRSA group tournaments - it would qualify for Sporter, LV and HV. . . OH, AND unlimited!
Now, regarding clubs - I've never been able to understand why clubs, which have historically, hosted only NBRSA (group) events, but with members desiring to shoot VfS, don't simply affiliate with the IBS (there are no rules excluding double affiliation) to conduct IBS Registered VfS and NBRSA Registered Group . . . or, dual registered group events - I believe that St. Louis BR Club does the latter.
Don't forget - at Webster City, we shoot ALL BR diciplines! RG
You CAN shoot your HV rig in NBRSA HV group tournamnets - closest to you would be Don Deckert's (Prairie Dog Target Club,Porcupine, SD), or, Minetonka Game and Fish Club, just North of Minneapolis, MN, near Elk River.
If your rig weighs 10.5#, you can shoot it in both LV and HV NBRSA group tournaments - it would qualify for Sporter, LV and HV. . . OH, AND unlimited!
Now, regarding clubs - I've never been able to understand why clubs, which have historically, hosted only NBRSA (group) events, but with members desiring to shoot VfS, don't simply affiliate with the IBS (there are no rules excluding double affiliation) to conduct IBS Registered VfS and NBRSA Registered Group . . . or, dual registered group events - I believe that St. Louis BR Club does the latter.
Don't forget - at Webster City, we shoot ALL BR diciplines!
RGOK, I'm a sucker, I'll bite. Just what kind of storm were you trying to start?
BTW Don, It was the socialist pinko communist labor unions who went for the designated hitter, so the clubs would have to employ one more person. Wait, you say it was at the expense of another pitcher? Well, then it was the running capitalist dog owners, trying to save a buck.
Tim Oltersdorf
Active member
Kill Em All. Let God sort Em Out
As a card carrying member of both organizations here is my, hopefully unbiased, take on our dilemma: Gather the entire boards of directors including the presidents of both organizations. Dress them in those foam rubber sumo costumes. Put them in a 40' X 40' 10' deep pit with 3 feet of mud in the bottom. Give each one the loudest bullhorn they make. The first group to make it out with a consensus wins on the issue of reunification or not. After this, any one wanting to raise this issue again has to go into the pit and engage in mud, sumo, combat with the winning consensus team. Tim
As a card carrying member of both organizations here is my, hopefully unbiased, take on our dilemma: Gather the entire boards of directors including the presidents of both organizations. Dress them in those foam rubber sumo costumes. Put them in a 40' X 40' 10' deep pit with 3 feet of mud in the bottom. Give each one the loudest bullhorn they make. The first group to make it out with a consensus wins on the issue of reunification or not. After this, any one wanting to raise this issue again has to go into the pit and engage in mud, sumo, combat with the winning consensus team. Tim
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Francis
Take two calls and aspirin me in the morning.
'Ell no, lets talk about Redundant-Redundant (that's a double redundant) Sporter VS. Light Varmint. That one will be easy.
Take two calls and aspirin me in the morning.
'Ell no, lets talk about Redundant-Redundant (that's a double redundant) Sporter VS. Light Varmint. That one will be easy.
It's all a big misunderstanding..
A number of folks, generally group shooters, hold opinions of score matches with little basis. Somebody once said..."If we start sanctioning score matches that's all the clubs will want to shoot." Made some sense in the existing atmosphere and it stuck. Plain truth is, as some have stated, clubs can stop hosting group matches and go to score any time they choose. The sole reason that anybody shoots anything is that they want to. Doesn't follow that if the NBRSA put score on the menu that more score matches would crop up. Perhaps some of the existing score matches would end up sanctioned by the NBRSA but where are the clubs and competitors that would say "HEY, Just what we've been waiting on! The NBRSA now has score so let's schedule some matches!"
It's a no never minder. Some prefer group and some prefer score. Put it on the agenda and make sure your director and regional members see a public show of hands on it.
A number of folks, generally group shooters, hold opinions of score matches with little basis. Somebody once said..."If we start sanctioning score matches that's all the clubs will want to shoot." Made some sense in the existing atmosphere and it stuck. Plain truth is, as some have stated, clubs can stop hosting group matches and go to score any time they choose. The sole reason that anybody shoots anything is that they want to. Doesn't follow that if the NBRSA put score on the menu that more score matches would crop up. Perhaps some of the existing score matches would end up sanctioned by the NBRSA but where are the clubs and competitors that would say "HEY, Just what we've been waiting on! The NBRSA now has score so let's schedule some matches!"
It's a no never minder. Some prefer group and some prefer score. Put it on the agenda and make sure your director and regional members see a public show of hands on it.
David Apple
Member
You CAN shoot your HV rig in NBRSA HV group tournamnets - closest to you would be Don Deckert's (Prairie Dog Target Club,Porcupine, SD), or, Minetonka Game and Fish Club, just North of Minneapolis, MN, near Elk River.
If your rig weighs 10.5#, you can shoot it in both LV and HV NBRSA group tournaments - it would qualify for Sporter, LV and HV. . . OH, AND unlimited!
Now, regarding clubs - I've never been able to understand why clubs, which have historically, hosted only NBRSA (group) events, but with members desiring to shoot VfS, don't simply affiliate with the IBS (there are no rules excluding double affiliation) to conduct IBS Registered VfS and NBRSA Registered Group . . . or, dual registered group events - I believe that St. Louis BR Club does the latter.
Don't forget - at Webster City, we shoot ALL BR diciplines!
To add a bit to R.G.'s comments: As the IBS Score program at Webster City has grown, so has the number of shooters in their IBS Group tournaments. There are a good number of 'cross-over' shooters that shoot both disciplines, even though their main focus may be Score or Group.
A good foundation for any club wanting to grow the number of BR shooters would be to offer the IBS Score shoots as well as a Group program (NBRSA or IBS).
Givin' people what they want is never bad business.
jackie schmidt
New member
10.5 lb vs 13.5 lb
I have just built a legal 10.5 pound Rifle on my new full length trim 30BR. I shot it the better part of last Sunday and, while it DOES hit you enough to tell it ain't a 6mm, it certainly is not that bad.
I have found a accuracy node at about 2950 fps with a 22 inch barrel, 4198, and 112 grn bullets. That same load gave about 3040 out of my HV's 24 inch barrel.
I am at a cross roads right now with this thing. This week end,we have the Texas State LV and Texas State Sporter at New Braunfels. (no 13.5 pound Rifles at this Match). I have almost convinced myself to shoot this 30BR.
But then, this is the Texas State Championships. I have a decent barrel on my 6PPC Sporter, and I just don't know.
I feel like it has the accuracy potential to be competitive. But, this match will be populated by some serious shooters, and down here, the Texas State 4-Gun is a nice prize to garner.
Yeh, I know I sound "gutless".............jackie
I have just built a legal 10.5 pound Rifle on my new full length trim 30BR. I shot it the better part of last Sunday and, while it DOES hit you enough to tell it ain't a 6mm, it certainly is not that bad.
I have found a accuracy node at about 2950 fps with a 22 inch barrel, 4198, and 112 grn bullets. That same load gave about 3040 out of my HV's 24 inch barrel.
I am at a cross roads right now with this thing. This week end,we have the Texas State LV and Texas State Sporter at New Braunfels. (no 13.5 pound Rifles at this Match). I have almost convinced myself to shoot this 30BR.
But then, this is the Texas State Championships. I have a decent barrel on my 6PPC Sporter, and I just don't know.
I feel like it has the accuracy potential to be competitive. But, this match will be populated by some serious shooters, and down here, the Texas State 4-Gun is a nice prize to garner.
Yeh, I know I sound "gutless".
............jackie
J
J Conley
Guest
We at Denton are doing just that. We hold two NBRSA registered matches a year and they usually do fairly well. We hold eight club matches a year shooting score in the morning and group after lunch. When I took on the match director job I sent out a lot of emails and asked a bunch of questions about what everyone wanted to see. After the question of registered score matches came up several times I moved forward with it. I was very surprised with what came next. The average shooter was happy to see his shooting season extended and thanked me for the effort. However more than a few older shooters went out of their way to try to talk me out of it. In fact I had changed my mind just to try and keep the peace. It wasn’t until the average shooters spoke up asking why I wasn’t going ahead with IBS. I figured out I didn’t have a real reason. So we made the change.
I’m at a real disadvantage; I’m only 35 years old so I wasn’t around when the IBS was formed. I don’t all the reasons why the NBRSA hates the IBS and I’m starting to think I just don’t care. I just want to shot at some paper and try to get other people that don’t shoot to give it a try.
We will hold The IBS Texas State Championship this year on the second weekend of October. It will be all VFS 100yd – 200yd on Saturday and 100yd -200yd group on Sunday. As it looks now the Shilen crew will be sponsoring this event will a big cookout.
If people come and support this event we will do it next year along with a second IBS shoot. My hopes are The IBS Texas State Championship will grow into a nice size event and possibly have other clubs it Texas host the shoot.
Hey if it doesn’t go over than I’ll try something different. I just want people to shoot.
Jon
I’m at a real disadvantage; I’m only 35 years old so I wasn’t around when the IBS was formed. I don’t all the reasons why the NBRSA hates the IBS and I’m starting to think I just don’t care. I just want to shot at some paper and try to get other people that don’t shoot to give it a try.
We will hold The IBS Texas State Championship this year on the second weekend of October. It will be all VFS 100yd – 200yd on Saturday and 100yd -200yd group on Sunday. As it looks now the Shilen crew will be sponsoring this event will a big cookout.
If people come and support this event we will do it next year along with a second IBS shoot. My hopes are The IBS Texas State Championship will grow into a nice size event and possibly have other clubs it Texas host the shoot.
Hey if it doesn’t go over than I’ll try something different. I just want people to shoot.
Jon
333smitty
Tomball Gun Club
J Conly
What will the weight classes be for VFS and and the group matches?
Entry fees?
Will you keep your two NBRSA matches?
What will the weight classes be for VFS and and the group matches?
Entry fees?
Will you keep your two NBRSA matches?
Last edited:
J
J Conley
Guest
We’ll shoot all the weight classes together at the same time and recognize each class separately (VFS). The group shoot will be HV. I thought if we did that it wouldn’t restrict anyone. The last thing I want is for someone not to shoot because their gun doesn’t qualify. The price will be $50.00 a day with free practice Friday. If everything goes as we hope, and it looks like it will we should have some great door prizes and cool giveaways.
As for the NBRSA, Denton will always be a member and we plan to work towards making those shoots better. This is about bringing more people into our sport. We will do that by adding new things not taking away.. Jon
As for the NBRSA, Denton will always be a member and we plan to work towards making those shoots better. This is about bringing more people into our sport. We will do that by adding new things not taking away.. Jon
I'd like to add something to this.
First off, I am the current director of the Eastern Region of the NBRSA. In case you don't know this, the Eastern Region borders what is historically thought of as IBS territory. This is where the break between the two organizations supposedly occurred. If you think you have difficulties in philosophy where you live and shoot, let's compare stories some time.
I wasn't around during that time, but there are still quite a few of our members here in the region (and elsewhere) who were and have some strong thoughts about that divergence. The reasons for the divergence and the associated hard feelings seem to be slowly fading with the passage of time – which is a good thing. Please read on…
What looks like has happened in the time since that divergence, at least around this part of the country, is that the two organizations seem to have developed into the areas that their VOTING members have wanted them to go; similar paths but addressing what their members wanted to do from a shooting discipline perspective. The NBRSA VOTING members have taken that organization down basically a group-shooting path, but have hunter class and long range disciplines, too. The IBS also has group matches, but has developed more toward a score shooting organization, which again is where their VOTING members have taken them. Similar, but different in perhaps a good way. Please read on…
I will say that when I started shooting benchrest I shot a 6PPC in a VFS score match. Because the equipment and caliber were the same I tried to shoot some group matches, too. (In fact, I can remember driving home from my first group match with my tail between my legs saying that maybe I should give up this group thing and stick to shooting score matches.) I just wanted to pull the trigger and try my best, no matter what the discipline was. The transition was easier at that time from VFS to group because of the equipment and caliber being basically the same. (I tried the 6X hunter class and can honestly say that it was way too hard for me to pick up on – my hat is off to those guys who can do that as well as they do.) However, I see the transition between VFS to group (or vice versa) being a bit more difficult today with the advent of the .30 BR. One still can compete with a PPC in VFS, but it is considerably more difficult than it was ten years ago.
That being said, I must say that I still shoot both group and score and enjoy both disciplines. I am a member of both organizations. They really aren't that much different in philosophy and the desires of the members to basically further both precision and accuracy. And there are a lot of great people in both. And when I go to a match, whether within either organization or unregistered, I follow the rules that have developed for that organization.
I have been following this thread closely and I can see three things that show a lack of understanding:
1) The NBRSA doesn't hate the IBS or vice versa. I would venture a guess that I have participated in more matches than darn near anyone else in this sport the past ten years and I have only seen minor differences between individuals hiding under the guise of a difference between the organizations.
2) I'm not an old phart director who resists change. (If you don’t believe me, come to a match and let’s compete; then let’s have an intelligent discussion.) But, as we have seen since the most recent elections, that change only for change’s sake may lead you into a worse position than where we were when we started, and
3) If you feel strongly enough about seeing the two organizations merge or having VFS in the NBRSA, or whatever, make a proposal to your director. But, don’t just pass the ball to that person and expect them to do your bidding without working at least as hard as they do to start a “grass roots” movement to get the proposal some momentum. The last time I checked both organizations are a democracy and if the majority of the membership wants to make a change, then it will happen. But, that doesn't occur by sitting at the keyboard.
I, and most of the guys on this Board, are getting a little irked about seeing posts about what we should be doing without those posting showing up and trying to work at making positive change. The whole world has way too many "idea men" and not enough doers.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have more important and potentially hobby-limiting or ending issues outside of these two organizations to be bickering amongst ourselves. And if you feel strongly enough about making positive change, get out there and work at seeing it happen. And add to that, join at least one if not both of our shooting organizations. In fact, I saw today that the NRA is offering some tremendous incentives for membership increases in this time of political turmoil. We could be losing one of our most valuable rights and we are worried about whether we can hit a dot or our next shot.
First off, I am the current director of the Eastern Region of the NBRSA. In case you don't know this, the Eastern Region borders what is historically thought of as IBS territory. This is where the break between the two organizations supposedly occurred. If you think you have difficulties in philosophy where you live and shoot, let's compare stories some time.
I wasn't around during that time, but there are still quite a few of our members here in the region (and elsewhere) who were and have some strong thoughts about that divergence. The reasons for the divergence and the associated hard feelings seem to be slowly fading with the passage of time – which is a good thing. Please read on…
What looks like has happened in the time since that divergence, at least around this part of the country, is that the two organizations seem to have developed into the areas that their VOTING members have wanted them to go; similar paths but addressing what their members wanted to do from a shooting discipline perspective. The NBRSA VOTING members have taken that organization down basically a group-shooting path, but have hunter class and long range disciplines, too. The IBS also has group matches, but has developed more toward a score shooting organization, which again is where their VOTING members have taken them. Similar, but different in perhaps a good way. Please read on…
I will say that when I started shooting benchrest I shot a 6PPC in a VFS score match. Because the equipment and caliber were the same I tried to shoot some group matches, too. (In fact, I can remember driving home from my first group match with my tail between my legs saying that maybe I should give up this group thing and stick to shooting score matches.) I just wanted to pull the trigger and try my best, no matter what the discipline was. The transition was easier at that time from VFS to group because of the equipment and caliber being basically the same. (I tried the 6X hunter class and can honestly say that it was way too hard for me to pick up on – my hat is off to those guys who can do that as well as they do.) However, I see the transition between VFS to group (or vice versa) being a bit more difficult today with the advent of the .30 BR. One still can compete with a PPC in VFS, but it is considerably more difficult than it was ten years ago.
That being said, I must say that I still shoot both group and score and enjoy both disciplines. I am a member of both organizations. They really aren't that much different in philosophy and the desires of the members to basically further both precision and accuracy. And there are a lot of great people in both. And when I go to a match, whether within either organization or unregistered, I follow the rules that have developed for that organization.
I have been following this thread closely and I can see three things that show a lack of understanding:
1) The NBRSA doesn't hate the IBS or vice versa. I would venture a guess that I have participated in more matches than darn near anyone else in this sport the past ten years and I have only seen minor differences between individuals hiding under the guise of a difference between the organizations.
2) I'm not an old phart director who resists change. (If you don’t believe me, come to a match and let’s compete; then let’s have an intelligent discussion.) But, as we have seen since the most recent elections, that change only for change’s sake may lead you into a worse position than where we were when we started, and
3) If you feel strongly enough about seeing the two organizations merge or having VFS in the NBRSA, or whatever, make a proposal to your director. But, don’t just pass the ball to that person and expect them to do your bidding without working at least as hard as they do to start a “grass roots” movement to get the proposal some momentum. The last time I checked both organizations are a democracy and if the majority of the membership wants to make a change, then it will happen. But, that doesn't occur by sitting at the keyboard.
I, and most of the guys on this Board, are getting a little irked about seeing posts about what we should be doing without those posting showing up and trying to work at making positive change. The whole world has way too many "idea men" and not enough doers.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have more important and potentially hobby-limiting or ending issues outside of these two organizations to be bickering amongst ourselves. And if you feel strongly enough about making positive change, get out there and work at seeing it happen. And add to that, join at least one if not both of our shooting organizations. In fact, I saw today that the NRA is offering some tremendous incentives for membership increases in this time of political turmoil. We could be losing one of our most valuable rights and we are worried about whether we can hit a dot or our next shot.
jackie schmidt
New member
Steve
I used my Super Moderator Option to re-instate this thread.
Please do not get mad at me for doing this. There is quite a bit of information, and opinions, that need to be aired.
If you wish to delete the thread so that it totally dissappears, you have that option. But I would appreciate if you let it hang around a bit longer.........jackie
I used my Super Moderator Option to re-instate this thread.
Please do not get mad at me for doing this. There is quite a bit of information, and opinions, that need to be aired.
If you wish to delete the thread so that it totally dissappears, you have that option. But I would appreciate if you let it hang around a bit longer.........jackie
Jackie; Thanks for doing this.
I know Steve (redrock) personally as we live just 35 miles from each other. We traveled to a tournament together last year and he's developed into a serious shooter with a lot of potential. In fact, Stan Ware just finished up a beautiful Borden-actioned HV gun for Steve to use in the IBS VfS tournaments at Webster City this season. Last season, Steve competed in the VH (6 power/no case capacity rule) with his 30BR Rem. actioned rig that Stan built for him. Then, he would put it into a 3" Bruno/McMillan stock, swap the scope for a 36X Sightron..and shoot the next day in the VfS class.
Steve also made the trip to Michigan last year to attend the excellent IBS BR school put on by Francis and Paul Becigneul and other hard working people interested in the future of the sport. I want to make this point so people will understand Steve's post for what it is: an excellent question from a newcomer to the sport who is interested in figuring out the 'whys' and 'why nots'.
Matter of fact, these are some of the same questions I had when I got involved in '98-'99. Still have some of 'em.
Steve's got some sand and as we say here in the Dakotas: "He'd do to cross the river with". Plus, he shoots good. We'll need to deal with him a bit more firmly this season......
Thanks again for Super-Moderating this thread back to life.
-AlKind Words
Appreciate the kind words Al, and No problem here Jackie, only deleted it so as to not be the one to (from what I've read) salt old wounds, as this was not my intention, the thread seemed to be steamrolling into a negative abyss and again that is not what I want, the background of the question at the time seemed simple but now I understand that it is WAY more complex.
A friend and co-director in the 09 Postal, Jason Stanley, asked me to go to Kansas City with him to shoot our VFS guns in a match this year so I said sounds great lets figure out the dates, well as most of you know, ( Myself and Jason now know) KC is a NBRSA Club and they don't Have a VFS shoot so that was why I asked.
This thread has taught me much thanks for all the reply's.
Steve Grosvenor
Appreciate the kind words Al, and No problem here Jackie, only deleted it so as to not be the one to (from what I've read) salt old wounds, as this was not my intention, the thread seemed to be steamrolling into a negative abyss and again that is not what I want, the background of the question at the time seemed simple but now I understand that it is WAY more complex.
A friend and co-director in the 09 Postal, Jason Stanley, asked me to go to Kansas City with him to shoot our VFS guns in a match this year so I said sounds great lets figure out the dates, well as most of you know, ( Myself and Jason now know) KC is a NBRSA Club and they don't Have a VFS shoot so that was why I asked.
This thread has taught me much thanks for all the reply's.
Steve Grosvenor
Steve
It's not at all complex and there are no old wounds.
Your initial question, after removing the "leading" distractors, was/is:
Why doesn't the NBRSA sanction score matches?
I'll try to answer that again and make an attempt to avoid "leading" distractors myself. In my nine years as a director, I don't believe score ever came up at a board meeting. Further, if it came up at a Southeast regional meeting, there was not enough regional support or it would have been an agenda item. ("believe" and "if" are used out of necessity)
A conclusion could be drawn and argued that the NBRSA membership at large is simply not interested in score.
Another conclusion, and likely the most popular, is that the board has some clandestine motive to squash score shooting.
It's not at all complex and there are no old wounds.
Your initial question, after removing the "leading" distractors, was/is:
Why doesn't the NBRSA sanction score matches?
I'll try to answer that again and make an attempt to avoid "leading" distractors myself. In my nine years as a director, I don't believe score ever came up at a board meeting. Further, if it came up at a Southeast regional meeting, there was not enough regional support or it would have been an agenda item. ("believe" and "if" are used out of necessity)
A conclusion could be drawn and argued that the NBRSA membership at large is simply not interested in score.
Another conclusion, and likely the most popular, is that the board has some clandestine motive to squash score shooting.
In some ways, things work pretty well as they are. When both organizations offer essentially the same sport, the rules inevitably are a little different. You don't find a rule reading "what he said."
For example, when I built my first Hunter rifle, one organization required a factory action, the other didn't. I believe that has been changed, but at the time, it did dictate one component in what I built.
Another current example, in short-range group, the buttstock angle is specified slightly differently in IBS and NBRSA. It is close, but not the same.
For long-range competition, there are some difference; the rear rest for NBRSA Light Guns can be a pedestal, not so for IBS. And NBRSA Heavy Guns can use a muzzle brake, not so in IBS. We have another significant sanctioning body in 1,000 yard competition, (Pennsylvania), and for a time, there equipment rules were considerably different that IBS or NBRSA. The three bodies have moved closer together, but are still not identical.
If you're trying to "shoot on the cheap" and use your group gun to shoot an occasional score match, or vice versa, having both sanctioning organizations offer both group and score matches helps just a little.
On the other hand, if you're dedicated to one or the other (group or score, not sanctioning bodies), it helps a bit to have them specialize in different competitions. "What he said" just isn't going to appear in the rule books.
For example, when I built my first Hunter rifle, one organization required a factory action, the other didn't. I believe that has been changed, but at the time, it did dictate one component in what I built.
Another current example, in short-range group, the buttstock angle is specified slightly differently in IBS and NBRSA. It is close, but not the same.
For long-range competition, there are some difference; the rear rest for NBRSA Light Guns can be a pedestal, not so for IBS. And NBRSA Heavy Guns can use a muzzle brake, not so in IBS. We have another significant sanctioning body in 1,000 yard competition, (Pennsylvania), and for a time, there equipment rules were considerably different that IBS or NBRSA. The three bodies have moved closer together, but are still not identical.
If you're trying to "shoot on the cheap" and use your group gun to shoot an occasional score match, or vice versa, having both sanctioning organizations offer both group and score matches helps just a little.
On the other hand, if you're dedicated to one or the other (group or score, not sanctioning bodies), it helps a bit to have them specialize in different competitions. "What he said" just isn't going to appear in the rule books.