Nostalgia question--mid '80's, 6PPC, and 322

The Army changed to ball powder....

In 1964 the Army switched from IMR extruded powder to Olin ball powder. In October, 1967 the Ichord Subcommittee investigated the problem that our soldiers were having with their M-16s. There were 31 faults found, but most of the focus was on the switch from IMR 8208 to Olin Ball Powder.

As far as GI 322 being close kin to 8208.....maybe, but I don't think so. The GI 322 seemed slower and it definitely broke down faster and has led to several house fires. Jack Sutton has probably shot more GI 322 than anyone here; so, maybe he will chime in and tell his experience with it. James
 
There are many versions of black 322 out there. Almost all
shoot very well. Much different than current 322. With that
thought, I would think they all are related. Recvently a friend
and I chronographed my lot of 8208( which arrived in milk jugs,
no numbers). We tried it at same measure setting( with the same measure) and at the same weight( same scale) . My lot , which I
had previously deemed as slow, was not when we got to the same levels.
It did require a whole number higher on the same measure, meaning that it was less dense. All this was done in the same gun, bullet cases and seating depth. Both capable of identicle groups and charachteristics
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
There are many versions of black 322 out there. Almost all
shoot very well. Much different than current 322.

We tried it at same measure setting( with the same measure) and at the same weight( same scale) . My lot , which I
had previously deemed as slow, was not when we got to the same levels.
It did require a whole number higher on the same measure, meaning that it was less dense. All this was done in the same gun, bullet cases and seating depth. Both capable of identicle groups and charachteristics
Click to expand...
Just curious, how did the 322 and 8208 chrono when measured by the same weight? I've noticed different lots of the same powder, Hodgdon and Vitavouri, will have different bulk densities but are real close when compared by weight.
 
Jerry Sharret
We did not chrono 322, I was simply referring to black
8208/ GI322/ T32 as all in the family. I am convinced that
all of these originated at Dupont. H322 is another matter all together.
 
Gi 322

[Back in 80's & early 90's you could buy GI 322 for as little as $28.00/8lb. I always shot half way up neck in cooler weather & bottom of neck on warm days. I have about 3lbs left. Still smells like gun powder. Powder is packaged in H322 8/lb container w/ yellow sticker, (GI military surplus, sugg. retail $53.00. ) Joe Neal Smith & myself shot a 10 shot string over Pac Chrono. (results = 3140-3153)(McMillan barrel ) I did not remember these #'s but we wrote it down and taped it on ammo box. Sako brass was the standard @ that time. As I remember we had very similar results w/Scottish H322, Scot 322, T32, and 8208. The 8208 I have at present will not produce the same velocity (3090fps last time chrono'd)
These powders worked well in 6MM American:)
 
Thanks Tommy

HFV said:
Back in 80's & early 90's you could buy GI 322 for as little as $28.00/8lb. I always shot half way up neck in cooler weather & bottom of neck on warm days. I have about 3lbs left. Still smells like gun powder. Powder is packaged in H322 8/lb container w/ yellow sticker, (GI military surplus, sugg. retail $53.00. ) Joe Neal Smith & myself shot a 10 shot string over Pac Chrono. (results = 3140-3153)(McMillan barrel ) I did not remember these #'s but we wrote it down and taped it on ammo box. Sako brass was the standard @ that time. As I remember we had very similar results w/Scottish H322, Scot 322, T32, and 8208. The 8208 I have at present will not produce the same velocity (3090fps last time chrono'd)
These powders worked well in 6MM American:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Tommy, that is what I was looking for, the velocity. Seems that as many teen aggs were shot at about 3150-3225 as today at 3375-3425. I'll agree with Ed Hartman and Smiley Hensley though, shooting hot is more fun.
Uncle Jerry
 
JerrySharrett said:
Just curious, how did the 322 and 8208 chrono when measured by the same weight? I've noticed different lots of the same powder, Hodgdon and Vitavouri, will have different bulk densities but are real close when compared by weight.
Click to expand...

I shot the GI322 at 54.5 clicks on a Sinclair measure. Never measured it by weight. When I had just a little left, I ran it over the chronograph and found it was running 3250 with a SD of 2. I shot the smallest group I ever shot with it at a match at Luther in '87, .135" @ 200. Berger 65 gr bullets made with Rorschach dies. I thought I had done it again at the next match the following month there and found I had four shots in the black square that I couldn't see. BR will bring you back to earth quickly.
 
SCOTTISH H322

;)Looks to be a phony jug. You better let me dispose of it for you. (joke) I have 2 partial 1lb containers with same. I think most of the H powders were surplus powders and this was new powder mfg in Scotland, not from surplus stockpile. (just guessing) My GI jug does not have this on jug.
The Scottish, GI, and the particular lot of 8208 I have all weigh close the same. (Less than tenth difference dropped from Culver)
52 Clicks= 28.0 gr
52-1/2 Clicks 28.2
53 Clicks 28.4
53-1/2 Clicks 28.6
All weights are measured on balance beam. The 8208 was just a little high on the line but if you move the scale 1 tenth it would fall just below the line.
 
Well, I may be a little odd, but the first jug of H322 I shot popped primers all over the place without overly torquing on The Big Knob.

Ended up using it for fire forming... It was good for that - would blow 'em out nice with it halfway up the neck.

I've got maybe 3-4 different lots of 8208 right now... As near as I can tell, they all "want" to shoot, but they like different weather. I suspect to the same degree that 133 likes different weather.

And now we hear from someone who thinks that loading in a climate-controlled facility will affect how things work on the firing line... Heck, maybe...

I know someone in Olin... I'm serious (I live in St. Louis, and I've worked with a lot of execs in the area doing management presentations).

Would anyone besides Forrester be interested in a run of Ball C (1)?
 
Some history of Hodgdon "Newly Manufactured". Bruce Hodgdon started his powder company with a train car load of 4895 powder. He started packaging and selling it as H4895, the surplus stuff, then bought some other types of powder from government surplus sales. This was the leftovers from WW II.

Later, as these surplus supplies ran out he started getting replacement powders made from various sources. These powder containers were marked "Newly Manufactured".

http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html
 
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Jerry
Are you sure he bought 4831 and sold it as 4895??
Acording to the article you directed us to he bought a car load of 4895. Which would seem right since that is what they used for Ball 30 Cal M1.

I have read that story before and I enjoyed reading it again.

Ted
 
Glenn,
I have a jug of 322 looks the same as the one in the picture but it doesn't say made in Scotland or newly manufactured. Do I have a jug of that lousy GI powder? 50 clicks on a Harrells premium BR weigh 27.7 grains. If it is GI were should I start for clicks to check it out?
 
Hey, I haven't run into any "lousy" powder. It's all good for something. Some just fits into the narrow niche of the 6PPC better than others.

The only powder I wasn't really happy with was a (very cheap) jug that the guy at the table said was 4831. Well, it ain't. I think it might be 4895. Gonna try and start light, and work up some .223 loads...
 
I do know that the fellow I got it from said it was faster than the previous jug he had. I am thinking that it is after GI and before the scottish made powder, possibly an 8208? Will start at 27 and see what it does. That may be a while as the road to our range is still washed out,but will post what I find!
 
Would anyone besides Forrester be interested in a run of Ball C (1)?[/QUOTE]

I most certainly would if the price were reasonable.
 
Don Nielson said:
After all the stories of houses burning down and eating the cap off the jug I poured my GI322 out at a rest area in western Kansas. When I stop there the grass is greener in that spot. All my HOF points were earned with that powder. Don
Click to expand...

G'day Don,
The 'problem' with GI322 was first discovered in this country by one of our local shooters here in Adelaide, when he left some in his powder thrower for a couple of days by accident. It went all goo-ey, and then a week later he had a can ignite in his shed. As a result, this powder was banned from use on all SSAA ranges in Australia. I still had four or five pots of it, and it shot very well in a hunting PPC.
The 322 that was available around 1980 was made by Nobel in Scotland as I recall, and was a bit faster than the stuff now made here in Australia.

The locals use anywhere from 28.6 to 29.8 grains in a 6PPC but velocities seem to top out at around 3370 fps. That's in my guns anyway.
 
We use to fill the old cases up with 322 and with t if you had some new cases the old cases would open primer pockets up if you ran them hot.I think a little over 3200 was near the top of there range.In the late 80s you could not buy a new case.Thats when some of us started useing taldogs .I think back to the first match i shot the short br in .I told ed and tony and some the guys guys i was shooting 3425 fps.You should of seen the looks i got.but at 200 yards the only looks i got was through spoting scopes 4 groups into sporter at 200 yrds i was .1660 .Corse i blew it the 5th group 4 shots in.3something and 1 out to .8.LOL had them scared though .
 
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