nodes...

Vibe said:
Never having to move the tuner is not the same as never having to move the tuner over five clicks in either direction - Which is it?




If you can tell that it improves or degrades the accuracy AT ALL then it is no longer "Nothing noticeable", but is instead VERY noticeable. That seems to be one of the problems of this discussion - sinply trying to discount those observations which do not seem to fit the preconceived conclusion.
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#1 I say never move it once it is tuned; nipper is the one who mentioned five clicks; take that up with him. You probably need to clean it otherwise that may throw it out of tune, but it takes more than a few shots.

#2 Once tuned five clicks is not noticeable to me. It may be to others. That's been my contention every since I have started using tuners. I've never wavered in that.
 
Lynn said, If you look at your pictures they show us more than 180 degrees and less than 270 degrees or 3/4 wave length.The nodes are at 0 degrees 180 degrees and 360 degrees along our wave with the anti-nodes being at 90 degrees and 270 degrees.The wave itself looks more like a spiral staircase and the muzzle as Varmint Al has pointed out and it makes a sweep and does not cut a straight plane.
If you plot a 10 degree sectrion of the barrel from the receiver or 0 degrees to 10 degrees forward of the muzzle you would get what resembles a straight line.Our half wave is roughly 21 inches long with a peak to peak maximum amplitude of 0.004 inches or 0.002 inches to a single point located exactly at the anti-node or 90 degrees.
If you plot a second plot using (X,Y)co-ordinates from 260 degrees to 270 degrees or just before the 3/4 wavelength anti-node to the anti-node and you superimposed it over your first plot you get instant "parallel node".
It isn't a single point but if you plot it out it fits Bills description to a tee
Lynn, all you have said in all this is: If you draw a line that varies by just a few thousandths through out it's length it will look like a straight line! Then if you draw another line that looks like the first one, the two lines will look like they are parallel. Can't argue with that!
I'll say it once again but I know it will fall on deaf ears, it's wrong to use degrees to denote length along the axis of the curves we are dealing with here.
 
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martin hammond said:
I re-read nippers post, I do not beleive his riflemaker tuned his rifle. I should be getting another rifle back from a bedding job, at that time I will write down how I tune. right now I write notes on the usbr targets shot while tuning. when my rifles are tuned you can interchange on the same target good lots of ammo and not miss a beat. Tom C came up and shot with me a month ago, he was shooting a psl target with my 40x. it has a Stith stock, Sitman bedding a jewel trigger and a Harrell's tuner with 5oz of weights. I timed it using 3 seperate speeds of ammo. Tom was shooting eley black box 1069 speed. after target 18 he used the last of it, I didn't see any setting on my bench, and said to him here use this it will go in the same hole. I handed him an open box of team 1056 speed. his reaction was no way, I said shoot it and see. he did not miss a beat on that target. Beau, I know my rifles are tuned and timed right, unless Bill Calfee is pounding smoke and tuned the rifle without you knowing it I am not convinced a rifle can be timed properly with a few shots. if it can be done me and a lot of others would love to know how.
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I know mine is tuned right. But you don't mention what your rifle is and it's really irrelevant. But let's say that you had tuned a hundred of them that were basically the same barrel and same action. Don't you think you woiuld know where to start and which way to go a little faster? Just experience. I was like you. Couldn't be done that fast, I'd better tune it. Came back to the same place without any preconceived notion. Doing the same as you, clicking and writing. I use a variation of the Hopewell method to tune. It takes a little longer and uses more bullets, but I'm always more confident with it.
 
Beau, I did mention that Tom was shooting my 40x. here's the other point and you can go back to the ammo testing thread concerning patterns that Harry brought up. if a rifle is tuned for one ammo speed and within that lot the fps exceed what the rifle was tuned for is that when a shooter gets a flyer? I think the diagram that varmit Al posted is 100% right. I think a tuner when set up right is a timing device and if it is that then setting a tuner for one speed of ammo tunes that rifle for that speed only. I read the entire thread about can we tell a barrel is stopped and Bill's words were folks I got real lucky. my question is it luck or is there a system which none of us know about?
 
Beau, yes I think that if someone build rifles that are clones that a system to speed up the tuning could be done. if all the rifles are clones then there is one of two things going on. a pile of world records or a bunch of lousy shots.
 
martin hammond said:
Beau, I did mention that Tom was shooting my 40x. here's the other point and you can go back to the ammo testing thread concerning patterns that Harry brought up. if a rifle is tuned for one ammo speed and within that lot the fps exceed what the rifle was tuned for is that when a shooter gets a flyer? I think the diagram that varmit Al posted is 100% right. I think a tuner when set up right is a timing device and if it is that then setting a tuner for one speed of ammo tunes that rifle for that speed only. I read the entire thread about can we tell a barrel is stopped and Bill's words were folks I got real lucky. my question is it luck or is there a system which none of us know about?
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Martin,

Bill gets lucky a lot if you know what I mean. Rarely is it luck. But you know if you took any pursuit in the world that you wanted to choose and were capable of doing and lived and breathed it for 30+ years, most likely you would be good at it too.

I'm not going to argue tuner settings for different ammo, because never will everyone agree and that's fine. I won't twist my tuner but if other people want to I don't have an issue with it. I have several lots of ammo ranging from 1047 speed to 1073 speed and they all shoot little tiny groups. I won't go so far to say my muzzle is "stopped" because it's obviously something you can't see and I don't have sophisticated equipment to test it. But it's close. Every lot of ammo I have is capable of shooting perfect scores with the same tuner setting. The only problem in not doing that is me, because when I look back at targets, it's amazing to me how I can just seem to ignore what is occurring.
 
Beau said:
Martin,

Bill gets lucky a lot if you know what I mean. Rarely is it luck. But you know if you took any pursuit in the world that you wanted to choose and were capable of doing and lived and breathed it for 30+ years, most likely you would be good at it too.
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this is true....i've watched Hongisto moving like a cat, mount a tuner ..set it
in two minutes and run a good score on an ARA card in four minutes..it don't take long when that's all you do day in and day out..it's seemed to take him longer to clean his rifle than anything else he did
 
Vibe And Paxcecil

Vibe
I'm not being apologetic for Bill I am just repeating what he said.If you have the post about the runway or highway and the stripe down it he even gave the dimensions of the arc and said to the naked eye it all gets lost in the clutter.I am of course paraphrasing what he said but the line is a very shallow arc and the other line is the same thing just parallel to it.
Don't believe any of his dumby guy stuff at all.He is simply teaching us how to fish rather than giving us a fish and you need to put all of the pieces together.
If you have all of his posts printed out it helps.

Pacecil
I'm a old military electronics guy and everything is measured in phase and phase angles not in nodes and anti-nodes so Degrees is alot easier on myself.I don't get the node and anti-node jargon in the right location 50 percent of the time so degrees it is and its actually more accurate because you know exactly were your at.
Please remember Bill was using dial indicators set up on a test fixture in his experiments and when you plot a very shallow arc on 8.5 X 11 paper it becomes a straight line.I know you follow his posts better than Vibe and he did give the arc's numbers saying a short section looks just like a straight line didn't he?

Waterboy

P.S.
Vibe
Somebody posted here that Bill Calfee doesn't shoot groups and he doesn't give group sizes.Of course we all know that is wrong and here is a post were Bill was discussing his sporter barrel profile with YOU and posted his groups.


Originally Posted by Kathy
So I needed to remove some material, which I did, in two .010" cuts, testing after the first cut......then the second...

I now have no vertical.....and I got extremely lucky as this barrel will now wait for me......my last two groups, with my friend Randy Hopewell watching conditions for me, he can read them, I can't too good, went .039" and .105" and I waited at least one minute between shots....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
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Lynn,

He's like everybody else and will occasionally measure a group for one reason or another. But he doesn't make a habit of it.
 
Beau
This was a response to a Texas poster claiming Bill NEVER shot groups or NEVER gave GROUP sizes.
Waterboy
 
looking further into varmit Al's post#76 and the esten's .22 article you will find another problem shooters run into. at 16 oz of weight and on slower ammo it is apparent that much weight on 1035fps ammo has overwhelmed the barrel and the tuner has ceased being effective. if the poi is dropping 4" or 5" from no weight all you are doing is deadining the barrel not tuning. it could be that the new von-ahrens tuner at 4.5 ounces is all some barrels need.
 
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I beleive they are 9.0 ounces. saw a post that with his basic set the total is 21.5 ounces. and there are 12.5 ounces to his set and that includes the adapter.
 
there are 6 individual weights to the von ahrens set. a 1oz adapter a 1/2 oz end cap, 1oz aluminum and a 2,3, and 5.0 oz stainless. to the harrell's weight set there is a 7.0oz and 2 end caps 3oz and 5oz.
 
Mine does not have any additional weight. I think generally you do not need it. You could be right about the RvA tuner. Maybe all you need. But 16 ounces of weight on a rimfire and you already have a problem.

By the way, there are six individual weights on the RvA tuner and they are made of steel and aluminum. The arrangement of the weights themselves will change things and the arrangement of the two materials will change things. So, if you can get an RvA tuner in tune quickly, that pretty much proves there are lots of sweet spots. The six weights themselves give you 720 possibilities not to mention the materials.
 
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