New to RF Benchrest

L

linekin

Active member
Hi All,
I am new to RF benchrest & have a few questions. I'll start with ammo. I know that it is key. What I'm wondering is that when you guys are testing or tuning for your best ammo how far out is the bad ammo? And I'm assuming the "bad ammo" is stringing horizontally?
The reason I ask is that I've had both horizontal & vertical issues on my last few cards & my X count has dropped. That is how I measure good ammo.
I know that my rifle is not in perfect tune as I've had a limited supply of ammo. Also I am new to wind flags & am sure it is part of my problem. But why is it when they "tell" me something & I hold off for it my bullet goes where I've held!!??
I do clean after each card with lead remover for the 1st 10in or so & a nylon brush. I've been consistent with this & am thinking I'm at the same starting point on each card. There was one evening however that I didn't have time between cards & for what its worth I didn't see much difference.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Keith
 
I think most shooters will agree that anything more than a .25' group will qualify as "bad", most want groups in the .1's. Horizontal stringing is usually the wind. When your flags tell you something and you hold off only to hit where you're aiming, I find it normally is a velocity change I missed. Wind direction is important but velocity is just as important. You also need to factor in that sometimes the flags just flat out lie to you. Some guns like dirty, they will take a half a box of ammo to settle down after cleaning. How long they can go before accuracy falls off is individual to each rifle. Trial and error testing can tell you how far you can go with your rifle. That said, clean is repeatable.

A quick look at the flags after a miss will verify the condition you shot in. If the condition shows the bullet is supposed to go where it went, it ain't the ammo. Even good ammo can't make up for what you missed, don't ask how I know that. Remember that the condition is there before the flags show it. Sometimes you get bit by a change the flags haven't reacted to. Something to be said for watching the whole field of flags. Ofcourse that's assuming your competitors don't charge too much rent for using their flags.:rolleyes:

Ken Henderson
 
IMO, a nylon brush does not clean. You need a good tight fitting bronze brush and good solvent to get the lead and carbon deposits out and you should brush aggressively. One or two passes doesn't do the job in my experience.
Dave
 
Thanks

Thanks guys for weighing in. Something I should have mentioned is that because of my limited supply of ammo I have had different lots. I've tried to keep the same speed however thinking(or hoping) that it is the real difference. At my first match I felt the faster the better as far as my scores went & at the last match I dropped down in velocity & was happy. I think a lot of it is also me getting used to my new rests,flags, gun, etc.
Ken, I have checked my flags as well as others after a miss & have been baffled as to what just happened. I instantly shoot a sighter to see if it does it again & it never does. Back on the 10 ring. I have a really hard time on winds from either 10 or 2 o'clock & generally won't shoot without a sighter. Go back to the target & something totally different happens. I'll keep working at it!
Dave, with all I've read about brushing or not brushing I decided I HAVE to & that the nylon would be the least abusive. I may give a bronze brush a try.
Thanks guys!
Keith
 
Just my opinion but until you get your gun tuned and have enough of a single lot of ammo to do some systematic testing under good conditions your going to be pretty frustrated by not knowing if it's you or the gun or the ammo. Everyone talks about shooting in the 1's but not that many rifles will actually sustain that level of accuracy over the 30 to 50 shots required for a target, and more importantly there are even fewer shooters who can shoot those kind of groups out doors. If it were that easy you'd see 250 25X targets popping up all over. Bring a note pad to the range, take notes on conditions, settings, ammo etc. If you shoot at the same range for your testing you'll find patterns of which winds cause vertical as well as horizontal displacement and it will save you from repeating the same thing over and over.
As for cleaning, well there are as many ways to do that as you can imagine but you won't find the one that works best for you until the gun shoots reliable groups. And don't think it has to be squeaky clean to be reliable either. More notes of how many rounds between cleanings, which method and how many shots till it settles down then how many till it goes away. It's kind of a process but if you tackle one aspect at a time the next step isn't so bad.
All of this advise is worth exactly what you paid for it of course so feel free to call BS on any portion you don't agree with, I can take it.

Dennis
 
Last edited:
2 more tid bits, Mirage- what you see is not where you are, and sneaky little thermals that your flags may not be able to detect. The range I shoot at is in what amounts to a bowl. Up and down drafts off the rear berm are a real menace.
 
Good advise

Dennis, it seems like good advise to me. I've kept track of the ammo I've used. That's it however, I'll keep better track of the rest. I'm at a point where I may be able to do a little more tuning. The problem is that even if I find some ammo it likes I'll have less than a brick of it. & availability is nill. I'll just have to do what I can?? I shoot at the same range as far as matches go. Practice on another. The 2 are totally opposite. The matches are in a bowl & my club is quite open. I'll be doing any testing in the am when it is calm though.
Blades, I also shoot in a bowl like range. My flags certainly don't show any thermals. They aren't as sensitive as ones that the others are using but seem to point in the same direction as all the others. I'm still not quite sure which is the one to pay most attention too. Sometimes they all don't behave & point in the same direction! I try & wait for that but can get impatient!
Again, thanks
Keith
 
Did a little ammo/tuner testing yesterday & may have learned at least a little something. Starting with a clean barrel I started using the black box I had the least of. After about 8 shots things settled down enough to try different tuner settings. Problem was that 3 shots went into the same hole. I thought I shouldn't mess with it. However, I was out of that lot & switched to a couple others that had given me good results in the past at least as far as scores went. Things were erratic getting both vertical & horizontal movement. I moved my tuner 100 clicks in both directions & saw no change whatsoever. So now I'm thinking that it is probably the ammo? The one thing that was different than in my shooting in the past is a very humid, still morning. I'll clean & try again this morning to see if I had gotten the barrel to dirty.
Keith
 
Just my 2 cents worth but tuning is to help when there is variation in ammo speeds. You can't tune with ammo from the same box. Look up the "Hopewell Method" and you'll get a better idea. There are different types of tuning and chose one that you can do. It's easier with Eley Match since the speeds are printed on the box and the lube is the same. Try different speeds at the same time and tune to try and get the same POI.
 
Eley listed speeds.

The speeds printed on the box are approximate at best. Just because it says 1036 on the box doesn't mean it will shoot at that speed from your rifle. Actual chronographed velocities from your gun may show that the slowest lot listed may be faster than the fastest lot listed. I have one lot that Eley lists as 1036 that actually chrono's at 1075 from one of my guns yet the lot specified as 1058 only shoots at 1067 so take the speeds listed with a grain of salt. The good part is once you do get it tuned at least you can then look for ammo that shoots with some confidence that the guns is performing.

Dennis
 
Have a little faith. I agree with you about the speeds listed since that is the average speed shot from 4 barrels as per Eley. You need a starting point and right now they are the only ones that show speeds . If you want to dance and there is only 1 girl left-go for it. Richard
 
changed

Guys, something has changed in my rifle. And these are the things I know has happened. 1st I've changed ammo because I shoot what I can get. Never a large quantity. Actually, always a brick only. 2nd the weather here in ME has finally warmed up. Considerably too. Also the past couple times testing its been very humid.
My rifle had been shooting decent previously in cooler temps. Around 60 degrees. Now with all that's changed I'm getting fliers. So in my original question I asked what do you guys see when you have "bad "ammo? What do your groups do? Do they sometimes string horizontally as well as vertically? I'm just curious what you are all familiar with seeing.
As I said previously I've gauged my eley on the scores I've posted. And I've seen that my groups would be decent. That has changed & I'm wondering what is the cause. The ammo, weather, me? Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks
Keith
 
Weather has a big effect on ammo. I won't even test ammo when it's still cold out. Most of my shooting is done when it's warm so that's when I test. Even then, day to day variations in weather can make a big difference. A lot of guys take several lots to the bench and pick one that shoots that day.

Sometimes it's just the shooter. There are days I can shoot the lights out with the lights out. Some days I couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a plank.

Ken Henderson
 
Keith: LOL!!!! Welcome to RFBR! Ill agree with Ken, Weather....Sometimes no rhyme nor reason, Ill generally go to the bench with at least 3 lot's that I know will shoot, Ill shoot groups before each card never really knowing what will shoot untill I see a decent group. This will change from card to card, and most surly from morning to afternoon, it's easy ( for me ) to screw up and shoot something that has a property (good or bad) that does not meet the conditions at that time. You will Never be done learning. Good luck! Ed.
 
thanks

Thanks guys for all the advise! I really appreciate it. I'll keep trying different lots & hopefully things will cone back to where they were. Not great but at least predictable. Anyhow thanks!
Keith
 
great help for the new guys

Thanks for sharing, this is a great help, as I am new to the sport.
Ed can I ask a few questions
when you go to the line with different lots of bullets do you have variations in speed, type or just lot no's?
Do you tune in cold, warm and hot conditions to see what your barrel likes?

Or do you have three different bullets your barrel likes, and see what will shoot best in the current condition?
Do you use a barrel tuner?

I can not claim to be a good shooter but have had the same two batches of eley black for the last two years, some times my barrel likes 1062fps and sometimes 1050.
I am thinking in colder temps it likes the 1062 better? is that to be expected or just an anomaly
Jim
 
something learnred today

Team Windsor said:
Keith: LOL!!!! Welcome to RFBR! Ill agree with Ken, Weather....Sometimes no rhyme nor reason, Ill generally go to the bench with at least 3 lot's that I know will shoot, Ill shoot groups before each card never really knowing what will shoot untill I see a decent group. This will change from card to card, and most surly from morning to afternoon, it's easy ( for me ) to screw up and shoot something that has a property (good or bad) that does not meet the conditions at that time. You will Never be done learning. Good luck! Ed.
Click to expand...

Speaking of learning I may have today. Good or bad! I had recently received some old Tenex with an advertised listing of 1043 & 10550 fps. Having listened to the guys I shoot with they tend to switch to slower speeds when the temps rise I hoped that would be the solution to my problem. It was NOT! I still for no apparent reason would still get occasional horizontal stringing.
Having made minor scope adjustments in the past I wondered if maybe there was some backlash in the adjustment threads that just wouldn't clear. So I cranked the vertical adjustment 1/2 turn down & crept back up to the 10 ring. Once there I started shooting groups * still the same horizontal problem.
Convinced that it's the heat & humidity which I hadn't shot the rifle in before I got desperate & started messing with the action screw torque. Not knowing where exactly the were before loosening other than more than 20in.lbs I started wiyh both screws set at 20. At 1st I thought that was the answer then NOPE! I cranked the fwd one to 30. NOPE! So I reset them to 20 on the fwd one & 10 on the rear & that is where it was best.
No horizontal stringing & was able to get through 4 3 shot groups with 3 different lots of ammo. Including the batch I thought was too fast. 1075 black box.
So I believe its the heat & humidity. Problem is now I question the bedding. I feel like on a fiberglass stocked gun that was supposedly professionally bedded that should not have happened?? Your thoughts please???!
Keith
 
linekin said:
Speaking of learning I may have today. Good or bad! I had recently received some old Tenex with an advertised listing of 1043 & 10550 fps. Having listened to the guys I shoot with they tend to switch to slower speeds when the temps rise I hoped that would be the solution to my problem.
...
Click to expand...

Can't help with your horizontal stringing, but I was curious why people want to shoot slower speeds with higher temps?
 
Kieth, I have learned the hard way. Black Box Eley is real famous for one or more flyers in each box! You will be shooting a good string and oops out of the blue one goes wide. Is it bedding, is it the scope, the operator? Most cases the flyer got you. Also one more tip to add to the equation: Be as consistent as possible with inserting the round into the chamber. If it is dropped, moved around a lot in the chamber, tip handled too much, toss the round down range and start fresh. A wise ole sage preached to me enough where I started seeing for myself where a round went was the result of a deformed tip. Never a dull moment in this sport.
 
Thanks Klayton. I'll be sure to be more aware of the way I handle it. I think its the heat though. I felt the gun was shooting pretty decent up to this point & I was its main problem. Not having much ammo I hadn't had a chance to tune it properly. I picked some up & tried tuning a couple weekends ago when it was so hot & humid. That's when I picked up the horizontal stringing. Wind hasn't been an issue as I've done it early in the morning before it picked up a bit. Backing off the action screws helped a lot to where its back shooting to where I was at. Still a bit of vertical stringing but at least now I can try & tune it.
Thanks for the tip!
Keith
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top