Nbrsa

With all due respect, I don’t think family obligations are the cause of what ails the sport.

The issue we face is not simply low participation; it’s declining participation. Family obligations are nothing new. They’ve always been present and I don’t think they’ve increased in the last ten years. And family obligations are just as present in the lives of people who shoot other sports.

I think there are two principal causes for declining participation. One is the advent of other shooting sports. The other, I think, is what was mentioned above: the barriers to entry. Expensive rifle(s), multiple barrels, lots of ancillary gear, figuring out the intricacies of developing a competitive load.

I presume this has been brought up before but I’ll suggest it anyway: what about factory and modified classes? They seem to be popular in Ultimate Benchrest.

Dave Rabin
 
I don't believe a factory or modified gun is the answer. There are many types of "benchrest"
but for the most part on this forum most are talking about SP,LV,HV,UL guns.
And most are striving to shoot the smallest groups possible. BR has evolved tremendously over the years.
Let's compare BR to Top Fuel racing for example. It used to be you could get a old 392 hemi, slap a blower on it put it in a chassis and go racing. There were a lot of guys in top fuel in the old days. Nowadays sometimes it's hard to fill all the slots. Why is that? Todays TF is CNC'd blocks,heads carbon fiber parts, special rear ends, 6 disc clutches, the list goes on and on. IS that a bad thing? I don't think so, it's just guys wanting to run the fastest cars on the planet.
It's just the evolution on the sport.

Now on to BR. Back in the day look at how many 98 mausers were on the firing line, plus other factory actions. Now we have CNC'd actions, carbon fiber stocks, great optics,triggers,bullets, and the list goes on and on. But look how the aggs have shrunk over the years. iT'S just guys wanting to shoot the smallest groups on the planet. It's just the evolution on the sport.
It's what this type of Benchrest is all about. Yes, it's expensive, time consuming, somedays it fun, somedays you want to pack it in.
There is nothing wrong with factory or modified guns but speaking for myself if I had a rifle that only would shoot in the threes at it's very best that would not be very appealing at all.
On getting new shooters, it's all about baby steps. You don't need the whole shebang to get started. Don't overwhelm them at the first. Get them started and mentor them as they progress.
Some will take hold and get the things they need. Some will not. Just the way it is and far as I can see.

Richard
 
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bad experience

jimmymac said:
I obviously went to the wrong group match then Jackie. I have all the gear. Gear isn't an issue. I was already in the rabbit hole. My main reason for attending was to further my knowledge and up my game by interacting with top tier shooters. After 2 days of practice and 2 days of competition the biggest thing I learned is that it's every man for himself and you are either part of the inner circle or you are on the outside looking in. Whatever I learned there I learned on my own. In spite of that, I had a pretty good time anyway just seeing how I stacked up against the experts. I just re-upped my membership for next year, so I'll see how it goes.
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jimmymac,

I'm sorry to hear that. I went to my first NBRSA match this past summer, in the Eastern Region, and I had so much fun I went to 4 more before the season was over. At every match I attended, everyone was very friendly and helpful. Always willing to answer my questions and give advice. If anything, I get too much advice... 10 different opinions on the same topic. lol. Most guys not only love to shoot but love talking about their rifles, gear, experience... so I'm very surprised you did not have the same experience that I had. I hope you give it another shot (pun intended).

Regarding the growth of short range benchrest and the NBRSA... I dont think its the cost or the time. I dont think we need to add classes, or make any drastic changes to the rules. I think the best thing we can do is get people exposed and help new shooters that do show interest. Its a very small percentage of the "gun community" that'll be willing to do whatever it takes to shoot the smallest groups possible. That's fine. We just need to make sure that small group of people gets exposed to NBRSA matches and keeps coming back. How do we do that?

Brian
 
As a newer shooter in this sport (3-4 years). I have been blessed with being able to have amazing local shooters give me great advice. Some are world record holders and one was a worlds champion. I went to a match to watch and to be honest I think I was a tad bit of a pain in the ass with all the questions and hovering around. But one shooter asked me if I wanted to shoot. And the club let him sit behind me and some what coach me. I was hooked bought everything and was shooting the next match.

BUT!!! NOT A ONE could keep me from getting sucked into the “flavor of the month” club. I was “upgrading” this and that and honestly I was loosing interest because I was spinning my wheels. I have since took a step back and went back to the basics. I have actually sold B&A triggers and went back to Jewels because I saw no change. My rest and bags works for ALL the shooting venues I do. I went thru my range stuff and if I have never used it I leave it at home.

We are our worst enemies!!! Some of you folks dont want to see that but we are. Lets face it my generation (I turned 45 yesterday) and younger are in debt and they tend to have to “compete with the Jones” so they see Neil Jones powder measures, fancy presses and some of the other neat toys you see in the reloading shacks let alone whats on the bench and start to pull away right then and there. When I am talking to someone at the range who seems interested I always tell them I was my worst emeny and didnt need to buy/swap out/ upgrade to harldy any of the stuff I have. My ebay Redding powder measure, Bald Eagle arbor press, used RCBS press, used seater and sizer dies worked just fine and all cost me less then my Chargemaster.

So keep that in the back of your mind when you have a sportsman showing interest.

Rant off
 
And thus the cost of progress...

Richard said:
I don't believe a factory or modified gun is the answer. There are many types of "benchrest"
.................
Now on to BR. Back in the day look at how many 98 mausers were on the firing line, plus other factory actions. Now we have CNC'd actions, carbon fiber stocks, great optics,triggers,bullets, and the list goes on and on. But look how the aggs have shrunk over the years. iT'S just guys wanting to shoot the smallest groups on the planet. It's just the evolution on the sport.
It's what this type of Benchrest is all about. Yes, it's expensive, time consuming, somedays it fun, somedays you want to pack it in.
.......
On getting new shooters, it's all about baby steps. You don't need the whole shebang to get started. Don't overwhelm them at the first. Get them started and mentor them as they progress.
Some will take hold and get the things they need. Some will not. Just the way it is and far as I can see.

Richard
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Smaller aggs, lower ET's...and increased cost is the price we pay.

Lets face another fact also, IBS and NBRSA group shooters. Most younger folks, raising families, buying homes to raise these families in, just can't afford the cost, let alone the time for 10 day events. The FISS Super Shoot, or the nationals, 6 days of competition plus a early arrival of 3-4 days for setup and practice.

30 days, plus travel, if you just shoot both nationals and the Super Shoot. Most working folks don't get 30 days of vacation.

There was a time we could retire at 62. Now Social Security doesn't come till 70. Retiring at 62, family raised, one could shoot these events. Not today.


.
 
A sideliner's view.....

Greyfox said:
Jimmy was specific in stating that he showed up for a match, a big match as I recall, and was pretty much ignored by those who already had a handle on what was going on. Frequently those who have an interest in our sport don't have anyone at their local club to learn from and their only option is to attend a match. I believe the kind of attitude he encountered is common among Benchrest (capital B) shooters and is one of the major reason the sport is stagnant. If we want our sport to grow it is crucial that each of us act as an ambassador. If you are not actively helping and encouraging new shooters you are not being part of the solution.


Rick
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I've contemplated joining the NBRSA for a couple years now. And after reading this thread I wanted to add my thoughts as an "outsider". I and a few other shooters can identify with jimmymac's and Rick's post that is quoted above. It does get old, and does not bolster one's confidence to join an organization or club where it appears that there is discord amongst the members, and probably the club officials are at odds. I'm pleased and encouraged to see the original post, and ones like Rick's.

That other "stuff" has to be classified as a thing of the past and lets move on to bigger and better things. So, I and at least half a dozen shooters that I know of that are not members are still watching to see what happens here and if it does go in a positive direction. See the last 2 sentences in Rick's post. I totally agree with that.

I was going to attend an NBRSA match a few hours from here and when I called to get the particulars I was told that " we'd love to have ya attend and be prepared to have your a$$ handed to ya". While I accepted this as a challenge (my skin is pretty thick), I'm not sure that was the way I'd want someone to encourage a new shooter that he'd never met. So that's why I can identify with jimmymac's experience.

Just my humble opinion for what it's worth. WD
 
WyleWD said:
I've contemplated joining the NBRSA for a couple years now. And after reading this thread I wanted to add my thoughts as an "outsider". I and a few other shooters can identify with jimmymac's and Rick's post that is quoted above. It does get old, and does not bolster one's confidence to join an organization or club where it appears that there is discord amongst the members, and probably the club officials are at odds. I'm pleased and encouraged to see the original post, and ones like Rick's.

That other "stuff" has to be classified as a thing of the past and lets move on to bigger and better things. So, I and at least half a dozen shooters that I know of that are not members are still watching to see what happens here and if it does go in a positive direction. See the last 2 sentences in Rick's post. I totally agree with that.

I was going to attend an NBRSA match a few hours from here and when I called to get the particulars I was told that " we'd love to have ya attend and be prepared to have your a$$ handed to ya". While I accepted this as a challenge (my skin is pretty thick), I'm not sure that was the way I'd want someone to encourage a new shooter that he'd never met. So that's why I can identify with jimmymac's experience.

Just my humble opinion for what it's worth. WD
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I've been doing this for a few years now and have to say that allowances have to be made for other peoples personalities. You find a lot of guys in BR that are the salt of the earth and some others that aren't. Gravitate to the one's you like and avoid the one's you don't, it's just like Church.
 
WyleWD said:
I've contemplated joining the NBRSA for a couple years now. And after reading this thread I wanted to add my thoughts as an "outsider". I and a few other shooters can identify with jimmymac's and Rick's post that is quoted above. It does get old, and does not bolster one's confidence to join an organization or club where it appears that there is discord amongst the members, and probably the club officials are at odds. I'm pleased and encouraged to see the original post, and ones like Rick's.

That other "stuff" has to be classified as a thing of the past and lets move on to bigger and better things. So, I and at least half a dozen shooters that I know of that are not members are still watching to see what happens here and if it does go in a positive direction. See the last 2 sentences in Rick's post. I totally agree with that.

I was going to attend an NBRSA match a few hours from here and when I called to get the particulars I was told that " we'd love to have ya attend and be prepared to have your a$$ handed to ya". While I accepted this as a challenge (my skin is pretty thick), I'm not sure that was the way I'd want someone to encourage a new shooter that he'd never met. So that's why I can identify with jimmymac's experience.

Just my humble opinion for what it's worth. WD
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I'm sure this was playful banter but it's probably not far from the truth. There's a steep learning curve and the competition is tough, but I've had nothing but great experiences in every match I've attended, no matter where I finished in the standings.

Forget all the forum drama and negative comments. If you like benchrest shooting and can get away for a weekend, you need to come out to a match!

I see you're in Ohio as well. The Shelby Co match is probably not far from you. Please come out to the next Eastern Region match you can and bring your friends! Most of the guys I shot with this year go out of their way to make sure you have everything you need and will help however they can. I shot all year without my own flags. I'm new but pm me if you have any questions.

Brian
 
Thanks and...

B_Rob85 said:
I'm sure this was playful banter but it's probably not far from the truth. There's a steep learning curve and the competition is tough, but I've had nothing but great experiences in every match I've attended, no matter where I finished in the standings.

Forget all the forum drama and negative comments. If you like benchrest shooting and can get away for a weekend, you need to come out to a match!

I see you're in Ohio as well. The Shelby Co match is probably not far from you. Please come out to the next Eastern Region match you can and bring your friends! Most of the guys I shot with this year go out of their way to make sure you have everything you need and will help however they can. I shot all year without my own flags. I'm new but pm me if you have any questions.

Brian
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I agree, that it probably was playful banter, but to someone a little shy or timid.... it could have gone another way. Again, I wasn't offended by it at all.

And yes I'll get to the first one my schedule allows me to, I nearly attended John's match at Shelby county in October but couldn't get my equipment wired up in time to make it. John's a good fella, I've shot with him a couple times. WD
 
A few days ago I posted a message about the barriers to entry in benchrest and suggested adding modified rifles and factory rifles, as Ultimate Benchrest has done. Further to that suggestion, I found the following on accurateshooter.com today, about Precision Rifle Series:

"PRS Production Division — Lowering the Cost of Entry

The Production Division is a new PRS classification. Under Production Division rules, the rifle must not exceed $2000.00, and rifle + scope combined must not exceed $4000.00. All other accessories, such as bipod, support bag, and the sling, can be added at the shooter’s own discretion. Even with these cost limits, you can put together a great rig: “There’s a lot of gear out there that’s not that expensive,” says Production Division Match Director Jacob Bynum. For example, you can get the new Howa KRG Bravo in 6.5 Creedmoor for $979.99. With an $800 Nikon FX1000 FFP MRAD optic, and $109 Game Changer Bag, you’re good to go for well under $2000.00 complete."

PRS is a fast-growing shooting sport, and the people who run it apparently have figured out that lowering the cost of entry is a good way to increase participation.
 
Dave Rabin said:
A few days ago I posted a message about the barriers to entry in benchrest and suggested adding modified rifles and factory rifles, as Ultimate Benchrest has done....PRS is a fast-growing shooting sport, and the people who run it apparently have figured out that lowering the cost of entry is a good way to increase participation.
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Dave, I agree that a "factory class" can be instrumental in attracting shooters to benchrest shooting -- it was for me, you and several other guys we know. Seeing the custom guns on the line at the first benchrest match I went to (in 2009, just to watch) was about enough to convince me that benchrest matches were "out of my league" -- fortunately, the match included a class for factory rifles and that was enough to get me interested. The first four registered matches in which I shot were with a factory gun, although there was not a "factory class" included in the format. In 2012, the BOD approved a motion to allow a "dedicated Factory Rifle class [that] would not compete against the Light Varmint class"; however, I've never seen a factory class included in the results of any registered matches. Furthermore, I don't see anything in the current rule book that acknowledges factory class for group matches. If that provision is still in effect it should be noted in the rule book, and I don't see why match directors don't provide for a separate factory class -- and encourage participation therein.

Having said the above, I'm puzzled over the poor participation at local matches that do include a factory class. As you know, River Bend: (a) has many, many members; (b) is located within an easy drive of Atlanta; and (c) offers monthly benchrest matches (group and UBR on alternating months) at a very reasonable entry fee (with the possibility of winning some money) and the matches include factory class; however, the participation is pretty slim -- and has been for quite a while.

I'm not advocating for the elimination of factory class, I just suspect there's a lot more than "the cost of entry" that's the problem. I don't know what is the problem; I'm just happy that we have nearby, low-cost, well-run matches to enjoy -- that do include a separate class for factory guns.
 
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You really can't compare the two (PRS and BR rifles) I build rifles for PRS shooters, the accuracy requirement to compete in PRS is not as high as BR. I'm not saying that you don't build a PRS to be accurate but hunting for the last .001 of accuracy is really not the issue in that game. True BR is building the most accurate rifle possible and then having the skills to shoot it to it's potential. It goes back to my earlier post, it costs money to play at the top. If I could do it cheaper I (and everybody else) would do just that. I don't know how you get around that issue.

Richard
 
Hunter said:
Dave, as you know, River Bend: (a) has many, many members; (b) is located within an easy drive of Atlanta; and (c) offers monthly benchrest matches (group and UBR on alternating months) at a very reasonable entry fee (with the possibility of winning some money) and the matches include factory class; however, the participation is pretty slim -- and has been for quite a while. So, there must be a lot more than the cost of entry that's the problem. I don't know what is the problem; I'm just happy that we have nearby, low-cost, well-run matches to enjoy.
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We have had Factory and Modified Classes at out Tomball Matches, (Score), for going on ten years now.

Participation is not very good, maybe 1/10th of what we have in the Benchrest Class.
 
As to the issue of attracting younger shooters into Centerfire Group, I don't see a suitable solution for time away from family. Group Nationals, IBS, NBRSA, or the FISS Super Shoot still takes 7-9 days at best. Add those 3 3vents together adds up to more time than young shooters get in vacation away from work.


..
 
Like i said!!!

You know I am not here to ruffle any feathers or piss in anyones Chereos but like I said we can be our worst enemies.
I think some new way of thinking might be needed. Yes some of you folks are looking at the “BIG” picture and yes the a lot of the working folks dont have the time to travel to any nationals or super shoots. Ok and whats the point of even looking at that???? IF WE CANT EVEN GET THEM INTERESTED IN THE LOCAL MATCHES WHY WORRY ABOUT THE BIG MATCHES???

Like I said I am not here to piss anyone off or come across as a dick. But come on now. We need to focus on growing the sport at the local levels. I am pretty darn sure a lot of you folks have some hidden tallented shooters in your local areas that can be hooked into the sport if they understand you can get into this sport with out breaking the bank and have a lot of fun doing it.

As far as the big matches. You remember as a kid you had those things called “goals” “dreams”. And a new local shooter will have the goal of going to to one of the big matches and the dream of winning one of thoses matches.

A young shooter can get into this sport on a budget. We need to let these potential new shooters who are showing interest know that and point them in the right direction. If they see it can be done for the same amount as PRS or any of the other sports you will have a fighting chance.

Like I said I am not trying to come across as a jerk, jackass or what ever you want to call me and if I upset or offended anyone my appologies it was not intended. I just strongly feel we need to act at our local levels.

We can grow this sport it just will take some creative thinking and everyones help.

Matt
 
First match, new shooters

I do remember my first match, one of Jackies at Tomball, I shot it with one of my PRS ( before there was PRS ) rifles. It was a pretty hot rifle in that genre, but I had to shoot it in the modified class. Truth is it wasn't very competitive at that level even. I admit to getting a little frustrated, weather was cold, and it WAS Tomball with typical conditions there. I probably would have not been back to another match, as I am a very poor loser!

Thanks to Gene however I did not quit. After the match, he asked me did I want to shoot his 30BR, he had 20 or so rounds left over, he wasn't planning to bring home live. So I did. Shooting that class of rifle, with a known great shooters set up, was a whole new world. Gene was watching and coaching me a bit, but after that 20 or so shots, I knew I was going to be spending a lot of money on this sport.

Point is, you want more participation in BR, everyone already in it, needs to do what they can to encourage new shooters and share information and knowledge. I've been lucky, and had guys like Gene and Jackie show me stuff that took them years to figure out. We will have to welcome all new shooters and them up to par quicker, to ensure their participation at matches. I know it worked for me.
 
I have been shooting Nbrsa since 1984.
Over the years I have seen to many
Public Range’s near large city’s close.
That is where I think it all starts.
1 day no travel easy to shoot match and the go home.
Very little time from family or other obligations.
Some even go preloaded. Cost are real low.
Over the years that’s where I saw the most new shooters come from.
You look at the Ben Avery range in Phoenix and you see new shooters all the time.
Traveling to matches I think is not going to change for a long time.
 
I hate to say it but new people or young people to get involved with short range BR. isn't going happen. There is too much work and it's dirty , not like preloading at home. Young people and work are not used in the same sentence. In ten years there will not be short range bench rest, think about it. The PRS. games are growing why they can buy the stuff off the shelves and it doesn't demand the accuracy level of BR. a 1/4 min. gun is great and a 1/2 min. gun you can compete. F class is doing well again a pre loaded game, same as long range bench rest is holding it's own. Sad I saw results from short range match and it had 3 shooters..... jim
 
jim1K said:
I hate to say it but new people or young people to get involved with short range BR. isn't going happen. There is too much work and it's dirty , not like preloading at home. Young people and work are not used in the same sentence. In ten years there will not be short range bench rest, think about it. The PRS. games are growing why they can buy the stuff off the shelves and it doesn't demand the accuracy level of BR. a 1/4 min. gun is great and a 1/2 min. gun you can compete. F class is doing well again a pre loaded game, same as long range bench rest is holding it's own. Sad I saw results from short range match and it had 3 shooters..... jim
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Not trying to be mean but...

Who says a short range BR shooter cant come pre-loaded? At Tacoma Rifle and Revolver we have on average 3 shooters who come preloaded 2 of them travel from OR. And all 3 place very well and 1 is a force to be recond with.
 
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