NBRSA Group Nationals 2015---To All Directors

C

C.L. Peterson

Active member
Rotate relay starting times at Nationals.

I think this has been discussed numerous times with the membership in favor of rotation.

It gives the appearance of fairness IMO.

Thanks for your time and consideration of this subject.

CLP
 
Rotation

I am in favor of this type rotation also. This was done in Pheonix by Gary at the 2012 Nationals and was a more than fair call on his part.
Bruce
 
from 2013 Board Minutes NC Agenda #9:

9. Relay rotation at the National Day one Starts with relay one. Next relay two would be first. Day three relay three starts and so until all relays have started and then start all over until match is over. Mr Meyer made motion to accept as written and seconded by Mr Campbell. In Favor Mr Meyer, Mr Hunter, Mr Campbell and Mr Stanton. Against Mr Libby, Mr Mundy, Mr Snyder and Mr Neary. Mr Nielson broke the tie and voted for mandatory national relay rotation. Motion passed.

from 2014 Board Minutes:

Mr Neary said that Holton’s Group Nationals will not rotate relays as was previously decided by Board vote in the 2013 approved minutes. Mr Fjoser made a motion that the Board grant a variance to the relay rotation for the 2014 Holton Nationals. Second by Mr Libby and unanimously passed. The Board discussed the feasibility of this mandatory rotation. Mr Neary made a motion to make the relay rotation at the discretion of the Regional Director at the Group National event. This will amend the 2013 approval.

Motion failed for lack of a second.

From 2014 General Membership Meeting:

The 2014 General Membership meeting was called to order at 1:46pm on Wednesday, September 24, 2014. President Thornbury discussed the relay rotation at Holton and why this was not done in accordance with the 2013 Board decision. He said the Board voted to leave relay rotation to the Regional Director. Member Dennis Wagner said the membership voted to have the relays rotated and was disappointed that this was not done in this National event. Tom Libby said he voted against this as this was the vote his region wanted him to make. Jack Neary said it was his decision to keep the relays standard. His direction from the Eastern Region members was concern that members would miss their rotation and that it would cause too much confusion. He said there will be issues at future Nationals if relay rotations occur. He wanted this in the minutes. He stands by his decision and feels it would be going down the wrong direction to make relay rotation mandatory. Don Creach said he is okay with anything in the rulebook but doesn’t agree with arbitrary changes to the rules that are not as stated. He said this is not keeping the business intact. He said he’s opposed. Rod Brown stated the purpose of rotating is that each person has a fair shot. Conditions change during the day and it is not fair for the person stuck on the third relay that is always getting poor conditions. He has shot over ten years and says traditionally conditions deteriorate as the day progresses. Jack Neary said he referred to Bill Gammon’s research that showed the facts did not support that you have to be on first relay in order to have favorable conditions. Mr Gammon said he did the stats at WWCCA and the most wins were at bench 1, however, he only checked one range. He said he would need to do the same at other ranges to develop their statistics. Ron Miller asked why everyone wants to be on relay one if there is no benefit? Mr Ocock said everyone is right. He said when we spend as much money as we do to compete, you want the fairest opportunities that are available. Dennis Thornbury said the members need to tell their Directors what they want. He said if the members are feeling strongly about this, we can go to a traditional vote but for now he will take an opinion poll of the members present.

Tom Libby
SW Director
 
Sorry to say it Tom, but it looks like you Directors are wasting your valuable time at meetings if no one follows the new rules that are passed.:confused:

Later
Dave
 
And all the above

comments still beg the question, "will we be rotating starts as well as benches or not?" I don't care one way or another, but sure would like to see the rules FOLLOWED!!!!
 
OK, guys and gals, who/what is the final word on this or any other subject regarding rules relating to procedures? Is the final word the current rule in effect on the book, or is the final word the Match Director of that Nationals, or is the final word the Regional Director of the region holding that Nationals?

What say ye???


.
 
Reading what Tom wrote, it looks like the rule is that you rotate which relay shoots first every day unless the directors give the host club a variance to do it. Rotating isn't any big deal to keep up with where and when you start for the day as long as you keep track of the paper they give you with all that information when you check in. Lose that paper and you might have a problem.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Reading what Tom wrote, it looks like the rule is that you rotate which relay shoots first every day unless the directors give the host club a variance to do it. Rotating isn't any big deal to keep up with where and when you start for the day as long as you keep track of the paper they give you with all that information when you check in. Lose that paper and you might have a problem.
Click to expand...

Mike aren't we talking about two rotation situations? The old traditional bench rotation and then a rotation of which relay starts the day?


.
 
No, the bench rotation at the Nationals has happened as long as I've been shooting at the Nationals. Don't remember which Nationals it was, but Relay One shot the UL the first relay of the morning. Next day relay 2 started first, followed by 3 and then 1. I didn't go to Fairchance when the Nationals was there. So, it had to have been wherever it was the preceding year. Still started on a different bench every day. Not sure they used to do that, but don't remember for sure. They all run together after awhile. Always has been , at least as long as I've been shooting it, somewhere around a 12 bench rotation depending upon how many benches the range has.
 
Mike Bryant said:
No, the bench rotation at the Nationals has happened as long as I've been shooting at the Nationals. Don't remember which Nationals it was, but Relay One shot the UL the first relay of the morning. Next day relay 2 started first, followed by 3 and then 1. I didn't go to Fairchance when the Nationals was there. So, it had to have been wherever it was the preceding year. Still started on a different bench every day. Not sure they used to do that, but don't remember for sure. They all run together after awhile. Always has been , at least as long as I've been shooting it, somewhere around a 12 bench rotation depending upon how many benches the range has.
Click to expand...

Mike,

this was started by Gary Ocock at the Arizona Nationals, he did this on his own, there was nothing before this, he felt it was fair for the shooters. At Ben Avery range the first relay is not always the best as the wind can blow strong until 10:30 / 11:00 so the later relays could be much better ( not always but a lot)

Tom Libby
 
Mike Bryant said:
No, the bench rotation at the Nationals has happened as long as I've been shooting at the Nationals. Don't remember which Nationals it was, but Relay One shot the UL the first relay of the morning. Next day relay 2 started first, followed by 3 and then 1. I didn't go to Fairchance when the Nationals was there. So, it had to have been wherever it was the preceding year. Still started on a different bench every day. Not sure they used to do that, but don't remember for sure. They all run together after awhile. Always has been , at least as long as I've been shooting it, somewhere around a 12 bench rotation depending upon how many benches the range has.
Click to expand...

But Relay #1always started the day of shooting. This discussion, as I understand it, would be for example, Relay #2 would start the day on day 2 and so on. Granted, Relay #1, for example, would start on the next rotation bench.

Rotation spots are the number of benches a range has divided by the number 5. Examples, Kelblys or St Louis with 60 benches the shooter would rotate 12 benches where Fairchance, for example with 50 benches, the shooter rotates 10 benches to the right!!!

.
 
This topic is a perfect example of how just a handful of shooters can get confused, how many of about 125/150 shooters at the nationals will almost or will miss their relay? Not that this format is not fair for all shooters.

Just saying
 
Tom Libby said:
This topic is a perfect example of how just a handful of shooters can get confused, how many of about 125/150 shooters at the nationals will almost or will miss their relay? Not that this format is not fair for all shooters.

Just saying
Click to expand...


??????????????????????????'m confused by this response?????????????????


.
 
Ok: I just talked with the match director. We will be rotating relays at the NBRSA national.
As of now we have 3 relays for unlimited and 4 relays for the bag guns.
So everyone will get a chance to start at least 1 day off by being the first relay called to the line.
We have over 200 signed up. So let's have a good time. Tony Alexander
 
Just keep track of the sheet they give you when you sign in and makes sure which bench you start on and when every day. After the first match you shoot, no matter which relay you're on, you always follow the same shooter getting off your bench. That is until they add another relay to the mix. If it's not the same shooter, one of you isn't at the correct bench. It's really more trouble for the target crew than the shooters. One other thing always make sure that you are on the correct target before you start shooting. Only two kinds of benchrest shooters, those who have cross fired and those who will.
 
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