NBRSA and good standing members

Abstentions:

MikeE said:
6 in favor, two abstentions, what was not clear about what I said? Not one vote in against banishment. And Abstentions may only mean that the abstaining director felt that a conflict of interest personally may exist, and removed themselves from the vote accordingly. That is not un-noble nor unethical behavior, those gentlemen are entitled to act in the best interests of the organization, AS ARE ALL THE BOD.

I do not speak for anyone other than myself. But what is your concern about NBRSA, if you are not a contributing member? I have paid dues yearly, even in years I did not shoot.

Next, Hunter - Why are you concerned with this, unless you are a member? Seems like just regular internet trolling otherwise. Kinda like not voting in an election and bitching about the results. I'm not putting you on ignore, but unless you have a chip in the game.... you're not in the game.

Why don't we all wait, and see what the BOD et al, has to say, I would guess that some sort of information might be forthcoming. No internet lynching need occur before its time. Like I said before, lets hear the truth, and then everyone can decide for themselves.
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Anyone who does not have the intestinal fortitude to vote their opinion in ANY meeting, should resign from the organization they were elected to be a representative of. Probably too late to grow a pair. I have held a lot of offices both private and public and I never once obtained from voting on any issue that came before me, nor will I ever; if I'm ever foolish enough to accept another office.

Pete
 
Pete,
There is a reason that a person who is familiar with Roberts Rules of Order could Abstain from voting, and that is if you feel that the vote being taken is improper! The two people that abstained would not have changed the outcome, but merely provided an acknowledgement that what was done was proper, even though there is no rule in the bylaws that incorporates the removal of an individual member, or even discusses how or when a member should be penalized, for spreading lies and/or information of a derogatory nature about another person, BOD or officer of the corporation.


Respectfully
Gary Vanlier
 
Steelhead1 said:
Pete,
There is a reason that a person who is familiar with Roberts Rules of Order could Abstain from voting, and that is if you feel that the vote being taken is improper! The two people that abstained would not have changed the outcome, but merely provided an acknowledgement that what was done was proper, even though there is no rule in the bylaws that incorporates the removal of an individual member, or even discusses how or when a member should be penalized, for spreading lies and/or information of a derogatory nature about another person, BOD or officer of the corporation.


Respectfully
Gary Vanlier
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If the bylaws don't provide a means to penalize a member for "spreading lies and/or information of a derogatory nature about another person, BOD or officer of the corporation", then how could the action be proper?

(nevermind whether or not the accusations were true)
 
BRRC Fine

mwezell said:
I completely disagree. I do agree that a serious safety violation should carry a serious penalty..just not a monetary one. I can see a season long suspension for 1st offense and maybe a monetary fine in lieu of a lifetime ban for a 2nd offence..or similar. I just don't think monetary fines are feasible, fair or as effective as a serious suspension. $1000 is a lot of money to some and inconsequential to others.
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Mike, I think that I should clarify the fine imposed. During practice/tuning days if a shooter fires during the cease fire they are immediately disqualified from the entire match, and banned from future matches at BRRC. This is the penalty. It is up to the shooter to determine if they pay the $1000.00 fine which would entitle them the right to return to future matches at our range. It is not a requirement.
There are 1200 members at BRRC of which about 10 shoot short range bench rest. During non-match hours we do not have issues with firing when the safety lights and horn are on, only during matches. We have been told that the red lights every 20 feet on the range are not enough and are unsafe, but this only seems to be the case during practice/tuning days for short range matches. We did not think that it was fair for the club members to pay for new flashing strobes or LED lights when they do not have an issue. If the shooter chooses to pay the fine, then those funds will be used to procure a different safety light system.
This is a growing issue in this sport and eventually one of those shots is going to kill someone. At that point, beyond the grief of loosing another human being, I am positive that the lawsuits that would follow would close the club forever.
I only speak for myself and not on behalf of BRRC in this post.
Respectfully,
Joe Fesi
Match Director BRRC
 
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jfesi said:
Mike, I think that I should clarify the fine imposed. During practice/tuning days if a shooter fires during the cease fire they are immediately disqualified from the entire match, and banned from future matches at BRRC. This is the penalty. It is up to the shooter to determine if they pay the $1000.00 fine which would entitle them the right to return to future matches at our range. It is not a requirement.
There are 1200 members at BRRC of which about 10 shoot short range bench rest. During non-match hours we do not have issues with firing when the safety lights and horn are on, only during matches. We have been told that the red lights every 20 feet on the range are not enough and are unsafe, but this only seems to be the case during practice/tuning days for short range matches. We did not think that it was fair for the club members to pay for new flashing strobes or LED lights when they do not have an issue. If the shooter chooses to pay the fine, then those funds will be used to procure a different safety light system.
This is a growing issue in this sport and eventually one of those shots is going to kill someone. At that point beyond the grief of loosing another human being, I am positive that the lawsuits that would follow will close the club forever.
I only speak for myself and not on behalf of BRRC in this post.
Respectfully,
Joe Fesi
Match Director BRRC
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Joe, we have a similiar system at Tomball. We are much smaller Range, ( limited to 300 members), but the issues are the same.

To my knowledge, in the past 15 years, we have had two instances during practice for a Match of a shooter firing while a cease fire was in affect. The penalties were not punitive, but in both instances, the shooter gave a heart felt apology to the shooters in attendance.

If it happens just on regular range days, (we have no Range Officer, the person who request the cease fire becomes the Range Officer), any body present is bound by an honor system to report the incident. It is then up to the Club Board of Directors to decide on what action will be taken.
 
I know that organizations are resistant to change but if the practice day routine was changed so that before anyone was allowed to go down range, bolts would be removed and every one had to move at least five feet to the rear of the shooting benches, and stay there while the range was cold, I doubt that this would ever happen again. IMO the problem lies with letting people stay at shooting benches during a cease fire. No one could approach a bench except to walk between them, not to pack or unpack or any other reason. Also, someone would have to be designated to keep an eye on the line during the entire time of a cease fire.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I know that organizations are resistant to change but if the practice day routine was changed so that before anyone was allowed to go down range, bolts would be removed and every one had to move at least five feet to the rear of the shooting benches, and stay there while the range was cold, I doubt that this would ever happen again. IMO the problem lies with letting people stay at shooting benches during a cease fire. No one could approach a bench except to walk between them, not to pack or unpack or any other reason. Also, someone would have to be designated to keep an eye on the line during the entire time of a cease fire.
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This is how they ran it at Tri-County the few (maybe 6??) times I shot NBRSA there. And I loved it. Cuz I tend to do stupid stuff in competition.

Like walking stolidly the line around holding up the "Commence Fire" looking for my shooting muffs ....... Which are on my head.

I'm designing an indoor competition range, putting narrow shooting slots and gates, cuz Einstein said it best




"Never underestimate the stupidity of shooters in large groups"

 
Bart said:
Jerry,

I think you pretty much nailed it! The only thing I'd add is you don't have to pay the fine. You can except being banned from the BRRC for life. In any case, if you fire a shot durning practice while the red safety lights are on, you will be invited to pack your stuff and leave that match, even if you pay the fine. Warning signs were posted all over the range.

Bart
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Bart et al,

I will chime in here as this is an issue that I am passionate about. I was the person disqualified at the STL nationals.

I have myself experienced about 7 instances of shots being fired during practice at STL. About 4 years ago I was downrange when a shot was fired about 10 benches from where I was standing and my son was downrange in 2015 at 200 yards when a shot was fired from the bench next to him. In none of these cases was anyone disqualified or even threatened with disqualification.

I have campaigned about this for years. In June this year another shot was fired during practice and it raised another heated discussion. As a form of protest, I even offered to pay for LED lights to be put on every second pole to alert shooters.

The St Louis range is NOT SAFE and that is all there is to it. One can not see the flashing lights when you approach the range as the are under the eves of the overhang. The lights are spread out and several of the bulbs have their red paint worn off. So unless you specifically look out for the flashing lights they are not going to catch your attention. The buzzers are inaudible as they are downrange and with your ear protection one can hear nothing - and I have good hearing. What about those that have compromised hearing!

That Saturday evening I went to the line with a new target as I hoping for a ceasefire! Believe it or not! I looked up and down the firing line, saw no one, and thought to myself "why am I always the last idiot left tuning?". I fired a fouler and the rest of my nationals was history. Luckily there was no one downrange!!!!!!

Had my suggestion been put in place some years back, anyone walking to the line would see flashing LED lights (not unlike what you see on a police car but in miniature form) and there is no way you would make this dreadful mistake.

So it is easy for you to suggest that I deserve a lifetime ban from the range. But I will bet you money that you have not campaigned like I to have this unsafe situation fixed. When I handed my $1,000 to Scott, I told him it was on condition that lights be installed on the poles. Otherwise I will not shoot there again and I want my money back.

There is an argument from the club that we benchrest shooters are too intense and it only happens to us. Well two things:- (1) that is not accurate as a good friend of mine lives in STL and he shoots long range there and to quote him - "It happens all the time" so even if he is exaggerating we know we are not the only culprits and (2) This is a benchrest range - this is where we are meant to shoot and if we are intense, which we are, then we should have a place that prevents this sort of thing. Fact is that no fine or banishment will stop this happening. And when someone does get hurt or killed then the discussion will change.

Insofar as the noticed posted "everywhere". There are always plenty notices of people wanting to sell their stuff. I hardly ever read them and I typically do not have time to read through a typed page waving from a bathroom door.

I am an extremely safety conscious shooter. This was my worst nightmare. Being disqualified from the nationals was no fun either. But after being the one who has campaigned so hard for something to be done, it is salt to the wound. And you wishing that I had a lifetime ban is no better.

Anyhow, a ton of good will come out of this and in my own way, I guess I was effective in something getting fixed.

I will suggest to all shooters that visit before the changes are made that they are very aware of what happened to me and what could happen to some shooter standing out on the range. The results will be nothing short of catastrophic for both the shooter and victim. I would also extend this to any range that has similar conditions. BR shooters are intense, we do walk to and from the line all day long, many are hard of hearing. It is a recipe for disaster. Let's all make suggestions to ensure that our ranges are as safe as possible.
 
Chris, this is not meant in a derogatory way toward you at all
But your post should make one think again about the seriousness of a lifetime ban from even one range much less the nbrsa
 
wrt to people not paying attention to the safety lights, would it make sense to have at least some of the lights mounted lower than up under the the roof line (7'+) so that they are more in line with people's line of sight?
 
Basic Gun Safety

That is a picture from the firing line at Bench Rest Rifle Club (BRRC).
I have thought long and hard about responding to this post, but I just reread Chris's post and feel that I need to respond. Again, these are my personal feelings and I do not speak on behalf of BRRC.
I find the statement that BRRC is an unsafe range completely ridiculous. The clubs responsibility is to have a system in place to notify shooters that the range is cold. This is accomplished at our club by a series of red lights at every other bench across the firing line, and a warning horn that is placed at the 100 yard line so that it can be heard on both the firing line and out on the range. There is a red safety light within 20 feet of every bench on that firing line.
It is the shooters responsibility to make sure that the safety lights are not on before firing a shot. If a shooter on the line cannot take the five extra seconds to look to the right or left of their bench to make sure that the 30 red lights on the range are not on before firing a shot, then they are unsafe. Range safety starts with the shooter.
Respectfully,
Joe Fesi
Soon to be Former Match Director BRRC
 
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I think it is good that we are having this discussion.

Admit it. Everyone of us have been so caught up in in our own world of trying to get the combination correct that we walk to the line, put the Rifle in the bags, sit down,......oblivious to the red lights untill someone says "hey, Range is cold".

Which is why we have to train ourselves to be even more in tune what is going on around us when handling firearms.

At my Club Matches during our Shooters meeting, I always remind Shooters to always be aware of the Bolts Out Rule, and be aware at all times of the Range Commands. If we have one shooting accident, it's all over. Period, They put a lock on the gate and we all go home. The tolerance is ZERO.

Perhaps we sometimes forget that what we are using in our "hobby" is a dangerous weapon. Maybe not forget, just loose sight of.

Let's all double our efforts in promoting safety, and encouraging everybody to always be aware of what is going on at the Rifle Range.
 
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Chris- The basic rule of handling firearms is a responsibility of the SHOOTER to make sure he/she is aware that the situation you are in is safe to shoot- that is YOUR responsibility. Half of those safety lights are at eye level and as far as the horn that blows- my ears are 74 years old and I think that horn is loud enough to be annoying, others complain about it being annoying also. I think you are off base on some of your other negative comments also.

Like Joe Fesi I do not speak for the St. Louis Benchrest Rifle Club either.

Wayne Corley
 
Joe Fesi and Wayne Corley,

Thanks for clarifying the BRRC policy and range safety setup. I have shot that range probably a dozen times. I even drove some 700 miles to shoot a 2 day IBS 600 yard Nationals there. I have found the range safety setup and posting of safety rules to be adequate.

It is the SHOOTERS responsibility to see the range is hot and safe, and no one down range, before even inserting their bolts.

Keep up the good work.

.
 
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