More on the "click"

F

feffer

Member
In Boyer's book, he says that when his cases begin to "click" on extraction, he discards them. As I understand, the "click" is caused by case head expansion which has increased enough to cause sticking in the chamber after firing. At that point, the bolt lift is impeded at the primary extraction cam and must be leveraged on the scope ring or otherwise to get it to break loose from the chamber wall and begin to extract. Then it "clicks." I think, this is basically right, but if I'm missing something, please correct me. The main problem with cases that "click," is that they disrupt the shooting sequence; important in competition, but equally important when hunting (maybe excepting varmints).

So a couple of questions. First, if cases start to click, can FL sizing bring them back? I know that it will size the head to the point where they will not click during a test extraction before they are fired, but at least some that I've tested will click again after being fired even once. I have some impossible to find cases that are starting to click...I'd like to preserve them if possible. Any possibilities?

From previous threads (and TB's book), it seems the ideal die is a custom FL die that sizes the body just smaller than the chamber and has a neck sizing bushing. For some calibers (not neck sized), this is not practical. What's the best practice for these.
 
The "click" is usually caused by a bit too much powder. Too much is often necessary (maybe not true) for a benchrest rifle but that pinpoint accuracy really is not required for a hunting rifle. Additionally, a hunting rifle is normally a one shot deal but I don't know what you're hunting. What I'm saying is that you have two choices - reduce the powder or deal with the click. Most have to deal with it from time to time depending on the chamber.

Some folks say that if you FL size the case every time, even before the click begins, you won't have this problem. I don't know if that's true but if it is - then do that. I dealt with it by sizing while it appears Tony just pulls out new cases. I did have a push through (all the way through) sizer that would get me out of a bind but it wouldn't last long. Somebody asked me if I still had that deal and I couldn't find it...dammit! It seems that folks are FL sizing these days and using more powder than before so that might be the ticket.

I'll admit that more powder sounds good and looks good but surely can't be necessary. I'm probably wrong here but I've never tried to shoot less powder and don't know! Actually, I've never seen anyone shooting "less" powder that didn't place mid-pack but maybe I didn't ask the winners how much powder they used - maybe.

I read what I wrote here and I thought about deleting it because it doesn't contain much of an answer...I then thought that this really doesn't have an answer so I'm gonna click the "submit" button. Just ignore it if you prefer!
 
Got a bit of insight from searches, a previous post here and Boyd's PM (yes, I do read them). When I started shooting competition 25 years ago, many shooters were just using Wilson dies with neck bushings, so that's what I got. The problem with these, as you all know, is that darn "click" if you load them anywhere near hot. So it's sort of a generic problem for me. With the PPC cases, I can use Boyer's solution, discard and make more.

But I have one old barrel which always shot well, so I put it on for a local competition a few weeks ago. It shot well enough to win (small pond) but the click was extreme! Problem is the chamber is a 6x30 American! I have 45 original cases left, but I don't think it's possible to get more. I'd like to save/restore these cases if possible. Some of you will know about this case, but for those who don't, it was a limited run by Federal of a 30-30 case with small primer pocket and flash-hole with the rim turned to PPC diameter and neck sized to 6mm. The problem for me is that I have a Jones die for it which will size the neck as needed and bump the shoulder, but does nothing for the too thick case head. In any case, FL resizing has never happened with these cases. A custom made FL die is probably too expensive for this aging barrel, but I've wondered if I might be able to modify a 30-30 FL die by grinding down the base? In other words, an economical solution to extend the life of these old cases and barrel.
 
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Wilbur, Ed Adams routinely shoots around 27 gr of 133. Wins a lot with it that low, one set of cases for the life of the barrel, no pressure problems, no extraction problems. Maybe most of us would be better off going this route instead of chasing the high pressure node and the resulting problems that accompany hot loads.
 
I've had some "clicks" over the years. FL sizing (Redding bushing die) and trim to 1.55 took care of most of them, but the carbon ring caused problems. I didn't think I had a carbon ring, Hawkeye borescope didn't show me anything (remember, I was/am a newbie) but after a couple times, I finally brushed the chamber neck and got some small bits of black material out, which I assumed was carbon. Since then, no click. Recently I've had some really hard bolt closures, so I trimmed to length again and will find out tomorrow if that's the issue. These cases have been fired 17 times with annealing at about 3-shot intervals. I'm shooting 68 grain BTs at 3350 so it's not a "lite" load. YMMV

Dennis
 
Hmmm, called Widden. They said if the base has expanded to the point where it's extracting hard, clicking etc, then the brass is probably not going to be restored no matter how much the base is resized because the brass "wants" to return to the previous size. So I guess even if it then chambers OK, it will "click" again after firing. Maybe time to retire this barrel :(

I guess the advantage of dies like Widden's is that they have to be used from the beginning. Then brass will last pretty long depending on how hot they're loaded, of course.
 
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feffer said:
Hmmm, called Widden. They said if the base has expanded to the point where it's extracting hard, clicking etc, then the brass is probably not going to be restored no matter how much the base is resized because the brass "wants" to return to the previous size. So I guess even if it then chambers OK, it will "click" again after firing. Maybe time to retire this barrel :(

I guess the advantage of dies like Widden's is that they have to be used from the beginning. Then brass will last pretty long depending on how hot they're loaded, of course.
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The almost unreparable brass gets like that because of a physical occurrence called "work hardening". Work hardening can certainly be accelerated by super hot loads as well as extended reloading of more moderate loads.

Were it me and the barrel still shoots good enough to win in your shoots, I'd get or make new brass.

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JerrySharrett said:
The almost unreparable brass gets like that because of a physical occurrence called "work hardening". Work hardening can certainly be accelerated by super hot loads as well as extended reloading of more moderate loads.

Were it me and the barrel still shoots good enough to win in your shoots, I'd get or make new brass.
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The brass is really unusual! The story I heard was that someone, maybe Seeley Masker, wanted to see if there was an "American" answer to the then new .220 Russian cases. Someone prevailed on Federal and they made a short run of 30-30 cases with small primer pockets and flash holes. The rims were then turned off the cases to the point where they fit the PPC bolt faces. It would be possible to turn the rims on modern 30-30 cases, if one could get good ones...Lapua? But of course they would be large primer and normal flash-holes. I heard Dave Tooley at one time had some of these original run cases and I sent him a note, but I frankly doubt there are any left. I really think if the brass is done, so is the barrel. Not the end of the world, I have a decent PPC barrel for that gun as well.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Wilbur, Ed Adams routinely shoots around 27 gr of 133. Wins a lot with it that low, one set of cases for the life of the barrel, no pressure problems, no extraction problems. Maybe most of us would be better off going this route instead of chasing the high pressure node and the resulting problems that accompany hot loads.
Click to expand...

Yes...I always wanted to try that route but never did. Ended up with a bunch of stuff to accomodate shooting at the higher pressure but it never seemed enough to cover my stupidity and laziness. I'd go to the nationals with horrible brass...did pretty good once, but that's about all. Actually, I think that is all!

feffer - I apologize for not realizing you knew what you were doing. I wish that was the only thing I didn't realize...
 
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Ya' know, when I first started shooting, not that long ago, it was unheard-of to full length size brass. Then we upped the pressure coming into, mostly, V133. Shooting the "after T" powders I shot you couldn't get enough in the case to build up that much pressure.

I'll bet, now, some of the top shooters are above the 70,000 PSI mark. Now some are up in the 31+ grain range of V133.


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