Maximum accurate barrel diameter for Heavy Gun

R

rooshooter

New member
I am having a Heavy Gun built for 1000yd BR and fly shoots in Australia. The barrel block is set up for 1.450" barrels, but could be machined bigger. Is there any point of no gains at a certain size? I know the local barrel manufacturers make 2" barrels which would be good for handle the heat, but might be too stiff to tune or regulate the vertical out of a barrel. What is the widest people go for? It will be chambered in 300WSM.
 
I never had a heavy gun and only use a light in heavy and now i don't feel i am at a disadvantage since i started freezing them. I had shot a lot of 4" groups and a bunch of 100's since having them frozen. So if i had a 1.450,i would have it frozen and never look back. Next thing that comes into play is the quality of the barrel......... jim
 
Jim,

I'd like to hear more about you "freezing" barrels. Perhaps this could be a topic for another thread instead of taking this one off topic or we could take it offline with PM's.

Thanks much,
Jerry
 
Most of the good shootn 1000yd big guns we shoot are 1.450" barrel blocked rifles. I see a 1.7" barrel hanging off a big gun every now and then and I think they look cool but if they were superior in some way we'd all be shootn em by now. You can make that 1.450 barrel shoot if ya get a good one. Only reason I ever seen for the 1.7" barrel is just so someone can say "mines biggern yers".
 
Jay Cutright said:
Most of the good shootn 1000yd big guns we shoot are 1.450" barrel blocked rifles. I see a 1.7" barrel hanging off a big gun every now and then and I think they look cool but if they were superior in some way we'd all be shootn em by now. You can make that 1.450 barrel shoot if ya get a good one. Only reason I ever seen for the 1.7" barrel is just so someone can say "mines biggern yers".
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Jay, I didn't want to go with the bigger barrel unless there would be some benefit. I think the heavy guns get enough ooohhhs and aarrhhss as it is.
Like you say, if most of the top heavy guns are 1.450", then there is probably a reason for it. Could it be the barrel being too rigid makes it untunable, which over rides any heat or recoil benefits of the bigger 2" barrels?
 
I cannot answer that without speculation I only stated what I know works because it's in use with all but the heaviest of rifles I see at 1000yd matches.
Leonard Baity and Bill Shehane tried about everything imaginable to improve on the Heavy Gun and ended up with 1.450 barrel blocked rifles wieghing 55 to 65 pound. Look at Shehanes Maxi Tracker and you will see what I mean. They even tried plywood barrel blocks!
I'm not trying to discourage you from trying something bigger just telling you what I know works. Maybe you should try a bigger barrel and see what happens you can always make sleeves to bring your block back to what diameter you want later, some smiths are using delron or nylon sleeves in their barrel blocks.
Sometimes all it takes for something to be better is for the fellar pullin the trigger to think it's better!
 
Both sides of it....

I have a heavy gun that has always had a barrel on it with a diameter of 1.75" or 1.85" since day one. That was what I had when I bought it in parts back in '99. No barrel block, but bedded out about 4". It has proven to be competitive through out the years.
I also have two other HGs that have 1.450" barrels, chambered in 300 WSM & 7mm Rem Mag. Both have done well also, more so the 300WSM, as it was shot a lot more. But neither had a barrel block, but bedded out to the 4". They both weigh in around 40 lbs. The first one comes in at 90 lbs. It is for sale, as my doctor who preformed surgery on my back a few years ago said that I should not be lifting as much weight from now on. I will miss shooting it as it has filled the walls with a lot of real fake wood.

Point being, I believe that the heavier diameter does have some benefits, such as absorbing more heat, being more rigid, and maybe less recoil & easier return to battery. The smaller barrels, easier to lift....

Danny
 
There is also a reference to approx 3-inch barrels in Vaughn. It was made in passing, they were used (by someone else) to remove barrel movement in an experiment, maybe at Aberdeen? The experiment was a failure as I remember, but not because of the barrel. That's why the reference is "in passing."

I looked for that page number last night a bit, but couldn't find it.

If you read Vaughn, you'll also see that you can tun a barrel blocked rifle by moving it it the block. Of course, this assumes everything else floats and the "stock" doesn't get in the way.

* * *

For a time, some of the Texans were using 1.250 or so barrels epoxied into two or three inch diameter pipe for their point-blank unlimited rifles. Believe the only thing anyone complained about was how much work it was. Believe too Jackie Schmidt tried cerrosafe as a faster alternative...but not cheap.

Finally, the tension-barrel rifles Joel Pendergraft & I (& Jeff Rogers & Tony Z in Australia) shot are a form of very heavy barrels -- i.e., having a muzzle that doesn't move. Believe Jeff still has the Australian record, doesn't he?

No hard & fast answers, except from the those who use faith instead of testing...
 
Charles E said:
There is also a reference to approx 3-inch barrels in Vaughn. It was made in passing, they were used (by someone else) to remove barrel movement in an experiment, maybe at Aberdeen? The experiment was a failure as I remember, but not because of the barrel. That's why the reference is "in passing."

I looked for that page number last night a bit, but couldn't find it.
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Page 76, chapter 4 barrel vibration.
 
Danny Brooks said:
I have a heavy gun that has always had a barrel on it with a diameter of 1.75" or 1.85" since day one. That was what I had when I bought it in parts back in '99. No barrel block, but bedded out about 4". It has proven to be competitive through out the years.
I also have two other HGs that have 1.450" barrels, chambered in 300 WSM & 7mm Rem Mag. Both have done well also, more so the 300WSM, as it was shot a lot more. But neither had a barrel block, but bedded out to the 4". They both weigh in around 40 lbs. The first one comes in at 90 lbs. It is for sale, as my doctor who preformed surgery on my back a few years ago said that I should not be lifting as much weight from now on. I will miss shooting it as it has filled the walls with a lot of real fake wood.

Point being, I believe that the heavier diameter does have some benefits, such as absorbing more heat, being more rigid, and maybe less recoil & easier return to battery. The smaller barrels, easier to lift....

Danny
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Danny,

Didn't the HG you used at the 2008 1000 yard nationals at Thunder Valley have a larger tube. To say that it was "compeditive" is a gross understatment!!!!

Thanks,
Tod
 
Tod Soeby said:
Didn't the HG you used at the 2008 1000 yard nationals at Thunder Valley have a larger tube. To say that it was "compeditive" is a gross understatment!!!!
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Yes! Saying Danny & his rifles are "competitive" is like saying the ocean is "a bit damp."
 
What group size is completive? If you can shoot a 17 lb. gun with a HV barrel in the high 3's and low 4's lay it on me what is the heaves doing? Matt shot a 2.8" 100 so they must be in that or lower? right?……jim
 
jim1K said:
What group size is completive? If you can shoot a 17 lb. gun with a HV barrel in the high 3's and low 4's lay it on me what is the heaves doing? Matt shot a 2.8" 100 so they must be in that or lower? right?……jim
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Where, exactly, was Matts name on the Natonals list? I see a Matt Kline that placed VERY well at this years match at Yukon. There were NO 2.8 inch HG groups shot there.
 
Matt shot this new and current World Record @ Williamsport 1000 Yard B/R Club on Sept 12, 2010.
 
So...he shot one good group. Good on him...everyone I know would KILL for a world record group. But it is just that ...one group.

I am just guessing here, but I would bet that most of the top HG finishers at the national 1000 yard events shoot true heavy guns. In 600, not as true, but there are still lots of true heavies there, also.

Again, just a guess on my part, but I'll take on any bets. :D
 
Tod, what your saying is, what is shot at the national is what counts? the rest of the year doesn't? Aggs. to me mean more than single target groups also,but to get these you better have a better than average barrel. If you can get a light gun to track with a good barrel, it will be completive with a heavy gun. What was good last year and before may not be completive this year. Consistency is what counts and the small single groups are a product of that……. jim
 
jim1K said:
Tod, what your saying is, what is shot at the national is what counts? the rest of the year doesn't? Aggs. to me mean more than single target groups also,but to get these you better have a better than average barrel. If you can get a light gun to track with a good barrel, it will be completive with a heavy gun. What was good last year and before may not be completive this year. Consistency is what counts and the small single groups are a product of that……. jim
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Exactly...aggs. You talked about one group. The only aggs in the IBS format is the nationals. There are catagories in the record books for six and ten target season agg records...BUT...and again..this is my opinion...it is much easier to shoot small groups at some ranges than others. You will never see a 10 target yearly agg for group broken at, say Harris. That place is just to freeky. On the other hand, I hear that lots of small stuff is shot at Memphis. Now, I have never been there, but lots of guys I know want to shoot there at least once in thier lives because lots of small stuff is shot there. Is it the conditions? Is it supiorior shooters?? The only way to know is to shoot there.

So, lets look at 6 and 10 target season HG aggs over the last 10 years....are they being set with 17 lb LG's or with true HG's? My guess is that most are shot with true HG's. Is there any place which lists the equipment that the record holders use. I would love to see it. I am not so intersted in the guy who shot one really, really small group...unless he is a guy who shoots LOTS of really small groups. The guy everyone watches set up, watches him shoot his sighters, and watches him shoot for record!!! Matt may very well be one of those guys. I don't know him.

No..I am totaly with you...it is aggs that count, but the only aggs that most of us see are the National events. It is just the way the IBS 1K game is set up. I wish that there was a way to transform the 1K game to mirror the 600 yard game. I love 1000, but way more "fun factor" in the 600 yard game...and you shoot ...AGGS!!!

As far as the OP...I gotta say ADVANTAGE HG. I am not saying that a LG can't hold the record. But, over time, I'll bet thet the HG's broke and re broke the most records.


Again...just my .02,

Tod Soeby
 
Matt is one of those guys that consistently shoots small groups and high scores for many years. Interestingly the World Open (2 day aggregate match both classes) which usually have about 140 shooters in both HG and LG @ Williamsport in 2012 was won by John Hoover with a LG (overall grand champion), and Matt was just one point behind. If anyone wants to look this up just check the Pa 1000 Yard site (also shows all other shoots during the recent years) and the 6br site.
 
I didn't say it can't or dosn't happen. Like was stated earlier....give a Great shooter (Like Matt) a great tube and a good tracking gun ...and stand back!! Actually, to put a dent in my own argument...kinda....take Al Forbs (ALF). He is the best 1000 yard shooter I know....PERIOD! Day in and day out, since forever!! I have alway said that if I was going to do it over I would coppy Al's setup. He has matching Fiberglass ST1000's. His "heavy gun" simply has a few pounds of lead molded into the stock and he shoots a 1.35 tapered to ?? BBL. The guns look IDENTICAL..just that the HG weighs about 22-25 lbs....kind of a LG on steroids. He uses the same front rest....the same rear bag.... both are dashers....every thing is the same. And, I believe he has had at least a piece of a few season agg records over the years (that bastard ;) ). You could almost say that he shoots a LG...almost.

Or Richard Schatz in IBS 600...One gun...his record stands for itself....

I will never bet against guys like that....they know thier equipment inside and out. I watch them like a hawk...ok maybe some could call it STALKING...I have never actually been CONVICTED.... :eek:

BUT.... what would happen if those same guys went all out and did the HG thing?? Makes me wonder....
 
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