LV Rifle weight question.

The method in Jan's post and in the rule book is what I've seen observed at some of the points matches that I've been to this year. When it says that rifles will be weighed at the end of a match, it's referring to any one match during the day, not the end of the complete match. So, it's random weighing throughout the days shooting. I've noticed though that while it may be random who is called, it's usually those competitors that are at the top of the leader board who are called out to have their rifles weighed. After all, if you're at the bottom of the leader board with a rifle that's over weight, it doesn't make much difference whether your rifle is weighed or not. As with all things, it's human nature for some people to want to push the limits of the class. If it's a 10.5 pound weight limit with a half ounce weight scale variance, they'll show up with a 10.53 weight rifle. I've heard of guys who seem to push the limit all the time. Word gets around about that and they probably get called to weigh their rifles a little more often than someone whose rifles are always lighter than the limit. I'd rather be an ounce underweight and not have to worry about it. I think I was called to weigh my rifle in the HV class at the Shamrock along with Bart Sauter. Both of our rifles made weight with the cartridge box, lens covers and anything else you wanted to add.
 
You can buy postal scales on the net for 20 bucks. They work quite well and i find that my cheap scale is spot on with the higher priced scale at the st louis benchrest club. I think its a nifty little tool myself. I do more with mine than just weigh my rifles. it is also fun to see the difference in rifle weight distribution from just sliding your rifle forward an inch on the rear bag. A cheap postal scale will help you see the importance of rifle balance, as well as keep you from being embarrassed at a match. lee
 
The how, when, where to weigh is always a debate and several views have merit. But, still, the onus comes back to the competitor to be sure his gun makes weight. If you don't have certified weights, which most of us don't, then take it somewhere that does like a post office, shipping establishment, etc. If it is so close that a few tenths of an ounce will disqualify you, you should get out the paring knife.

My range has certified weights: a 10-lb., 3-lb. and 1/2-lb. and our "cheap little postal scales" are unbeatable. A member of the Hall of Fame and past National Champion was DQ'd at one of our matches, causing a certain amount of hoopla and lively discussion. This was a referee-declared "weigh the top three guns after each agg" weighing. This shooter had new barrel, had cut it to the exact length to make exact weight. He was so sure of his home scales that he shot the same gun in the second agg on Sunday because he was going to show us our scale was wrong. Heated words were exchanged and as Match Director I felt like a louse because he is also a friend of mine. When he got home and his blood pressure had stabilized a bit, he realized his scale was reading in pounds and tenths of a pound (not pounds and ounces, like ours). When he was seeing 10.8 he thought it was 10-lbs. 8-oz. but actually it was 10.8-lbs. or 10-lbs. 12-oz.

Time enough has passed for that incident to have a certain humor value now, but at the time it wasn't very much fun and it made the $200 price of certified weights seem cheap enough.
 
skeetlee said:
You can buy postal scales on the net for 20 bucks. They work quite well and i find that my cheap scale is spot on with the higher priced scale at the st louis benchrest club. I think its a nifty little tool myself. I do more with mine than just weigh my rifles. it is also fun to see the difference in rifle weight distribution from just sliding your rifle forward an inch on the rear bag. A cheap postal scale will help you see the importance of rifle balance, as well as keep you from being embarrassed at a match. lee
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This is true. The inexpensive digital scales are pretty accurate; but don't bet a "DQ" on them. I have a set that I bought at Harbor Freight. They show to .2 OZ. accuracy. I also have a set of the NBRSA certified weights. My scales usually weigh within two tenths of an ounce of correct when I check it with the certified weights. However, they will vary at different times of the day. I think it is a temperature thing. To use the scales as registered match scales, I check with the certified weights immediately before starting to weigh rifles. If the certified weights show 10 lb 7.8 OZ., then 10 lb 8.4 OZ is the maximum allowable weight at that time.(allowing the 1/2 ounce scale error by the book) I have never had them off by as much as an ounce, but they will vary by as much as .4 ounce.

Joe
 
The rule should further state that if the scale if off by more than a half ounce the scale should not be used. I've seen and heard tell of folks adjusting the allowable limit by the difference in the scale and check weights - and that's just plain wrong.
 
Mike that would be great if it were possible.
The last time I asked I was told to just wait until they were ready. That was in the middle of the 2nd day......

Joe thats great but without the certified weight you could be in a lot of trouble.
I bought a set and it was the same as the one at the range with "their" certified weight. But I was still under the limit.
 
Vern said:
Weighing and weights have been discussed several times before.
Ill bring up the point that I have brought up before.
At different clubs I have seen different procedures concerning WHEN guns are weighed for registered matches.
Some weigh at registration, some before the commence fire of the first match, some randomly during the match, some only the winners.
I witnessed a man DQed on the second day of a match because they weighed at the beginning of the 2nd day.

There are those that always bring up the point that it is the competitor's responsibility to make sure their gun is within specs.
While this is true the only guarantee that any of us would have would be that we buy our own certified weight, since many of us dont have access to scales and weights prior to matches.

Why is it so difficult to just make it mandatory to either weigh at registration? OR at least before the first match?
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Vern I can understand what you are saying but I'm still mystified why people want their rifle to weigh 10 1/2 lb or that close to it that it my be DQ'd if the scales are out............if I ever got DQ'd because my rifle was overweight there wouldn't be any other competitors either..........my rifle weighs 10lb 4oz and I can't tell any difference between the way it shoots at that weight compared to 10lb 8oz. Actually I have shot a better agg when the rifle weighed just under 9lb than I did when I changed the barrel and it weighed 10lb 4oz so I think the barrel has more influence on accuracy than weight does...........Ian
 
Just my 2 cents worth, (1 1/2 cents US, EH!) I change weights all of the time and have done so for 30 years. If I am allowed 10lbs 8 oz, I want 10lbs 7oz, not 10lbs 3oz, this allows for a scope sheild. The end result is I weigh my rifles constantly on the scales provided by the club that I am shooting at. I also have a collection of weights for my rifles, pain in the butt when you change rifles, but what the hell. My HV rifle weighs in at 13lbs 7oz because sometimes I shoot a 24" barrel, sometimes less and I can adjust weight. "THE ONUS IS ON THE COMPETITOR" to make sure he is legal, and all of the ranges I shoot at have scales available long before the commence fire, so I do not understand the problem. Why do I do this??? I need all the help I can get not to come in last.
 
Another weight /rules query

I was wondering what would happen if. The club was running a registered match. Everyone made the weight limit but the scales were reading light. During the match a new world record was set. Then the error with the clubs scales was discovered.

Does the record still stand ?

Or would the rifle have to be reweighed ?

Or would the record stand because no checking of the scales would be carried out ?

Do the officials just assume the scales were correct ?

Andy
 
This is where the certified weights come in. If you have weights and the scales read the weights as they are supposed to be then there is no issue as this would be done before the match started.
If the scale is reading the weights light, the error would have to be factored in to each rifles recorded weight.
I keep the certification with the weights that we purchased so there is no question as to their validity (and the receipt for the near $400 we paid for them).
Mike
 
Yep I agree

Yep I agree. If the scales were checked with certified weights before the match and the referee signed off on that the issue never arises.

However if the scales weren't checked or weren't checked with certified weights and no issues came up with competitors being told they were too heavy and they were in fact weighing an ounce or so light. What would the officals at the NBRSA or IBS who measure the target do expecially if it was a world record. Would they have the scales checked then have the rifle re-weighed or could something like this just fall through the cracks.
Andy.
 
FBecigneul said:
Where is it written that a rifle weighing 10 pounds 8 or 9 ounces will shoot better than a rifle that weighs 10 pounds 7 ounces, 13 pounds 7 ounces for that matter?
"The police won't write you until you go 8 over the limit". Why take that chance?
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I am with Francis here.

The gentleman that I use to chamber and thread my barrels always calls me before he does them to confirm the finished weight of the barrels. We NEVER have an issue with being over or even close to being over. 2 oz under is my final weight of my rifles.

We just held our Nationals Canada Day Long Weekend. It was announced that winners rifles would be weighed. 2 rifles came in over weight even though it was announced and the scale was sitting there with Certified NBRSA check weights.

The issues from what I can see are those who add or remove weight from the butt. One case he forgot to remove the weight and the other was the last time he checked it at a match it was okay. I am pretty sure he changed a scope/rings and that put him over.

I will have a rifle where I can add or remove weight. Just one more thing to have to worry about.

JMO
 
Andy Cross said:
Yep I agree. If the scales were checked with certified weights before the match and the referee signed off on that the issue never arises.

However if the scales weren't checked or weren't checked with certified weights and no issues came up with competitors being told they were too heavy and they were in fact weighing an ounce or so light. What would the officals at the NBRSA or IBS who measure the target do expecially if it was a world record. Would they have the scales checked then have the rifle re-weighed or could something like this just fall through the cracks.
Andy.
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I am also with Andy on this. If there is a situation where the scale reads heavy or light according to certified weights the appointed refs shall make that announcement. If 10lb 8oz certified weight weighs 10lb 9oz on a scale the limit would then be 10lb 9.5 oz for NBRSA. As a ref I would want to verify the scale every morning if the scale were off just in case of some annomoly.

It then would not have a bearing of whether or not the rifle was legal. The refs would have done there job to the best of there ability.

JMO
 
Years ago when I shot "A LOT" of 3 position small bore I had a Rem 540 which I cut down to fit sporter class. I can't remember the weights but it was about 4lbs difference. The orginal 540 was a Standard rifle at about 11lbs, I think. A good friend of mine had a 540 Standard. That extra weight constantly out shot my sporter, even when we changed the stocks, changed shooters, ammo, what ever. If I shot the standard rifle I won, if he shot it he won. The heavier rifle always shot better. In my own experince my HV always outshoots my LV. My coach of years back in small bore, who was a Olympic shooter always told me, 9lbs will outshoot 8lbs and so on. So based on that experince I want a 10lb 7oz rifle. Because I hate finishing last. With a 10lb 7oz rifle I can usually finish second or third from the bottom.
 
If the host club uses "Certified Weights" and the scale "Tare" is set correctly to display 10.5# or 13.5# , this in effect eliminates the .5 ounce leeway. Any rifle above those numbers in the correct class will be DQed.????
 
Jan said:
If the host club uses "Certified Weights" and the scale "Tare" is set correctly to display 10.5# or 13.5# , this in effect eliminates the .5 ounce leeway. Any rifle above those numbers in the correct class will be DQed.????
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I think even if they are checked with official weights the limit with the 1/2 ounce variance would still be 10 lbs 8.5 ounces or 13 lbs 8.5 ounces depending upon the class. There's nothing in the rule book doing away with the 1/2 ounce leeway. When I check my scales in my shop, the 10 pound 8 ounce official weight weighs 10 pounds 8.5 ounces. If my scales were used, anything over 10 lbs 9 ounces would be disqualified since the scales are weighing a 1/2 ounce light. My scales are the digital Ultraship 50 scales that I've seen used at several ranges. Not a very high priced scale, but seems to work alright in conjunction with a set of official weights.
 
I just am not sure either way. All the "IFS" are still in play. With the scale on premises and the Certified weights on prem I see no room for error?
 
Jan said:
I just am not sure either way. All the "IFS" are still in play. With the scale on premises and the Certified weights on prem I see no room for error?
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Jan, the rule books allows 1/2 ounce to allow for what it says is scale variance. So, the way I read it even when the scales are checked with a set of official weights, the shooter is still allowed a 1/2 ounce. My weights are the painted weights as they were a little cheaper than the stainless weights when I bought them. Don Nielson told me that the painted weights don't weigh the same as the stainless weights. Maybe because the paint added a little weight, I don't know. They are both official NBRSA weights, so you would think they would weigh the same. The 1/2 ounce is in the rule book. A rifle that weighed 10 pounds 8.5 ounces would be a legal rifle. I wouldn't want mine to weigh that close, but thats neither here nor there. I've seen guys take off turret covers, butt plates and anything else they could to make weight. At one time, not every range had official weights and I think that was where some of the scale variance came in to play. I had weighed my HV rifle at the Cactus in Phoenix and made weight. But, I had trouble on the scales at Midland with no changes to the rifle. You didn't see official weight sets at that time back in the '80's to check scales. Scale variance isn't so much of an issue now days as it seems the scales are more accurate and have less variance. Often times what was used previously were grocery scales. These things were accurate if they were set up correctly, but weren't made to be moved back and forth.
 
Hi Mike,
I just checked with our Director, L. Murdica and in concert w/Pres Thornbury the variance still stands even w/certified weights. 10.52 and 13.52 MAXIMUM in the Varmint classes, including Sporter.
 
Jan said:
Hi Mike,
I just checked with our Director, L. Murdica and in concert w/Pres Thornbury the variance still stands even w/certified weights. 10.52 and 13.52 MAXIMUM in the Varmint classes, including Sporter.
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I don't think 10.52 or 13.52 would be the correct number. It would be 8.5 ounces / 16 ounces = .53125 pounds. Rounding down since it's not over .535, it would be 10.53 pounds. Doesn't make too much difference which number you use, I'd still want my rifle to weigh at least an ounce under either weight to play it safe.
 
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