Lathe set up

flatlander said:
purchasing a PM1440HD,
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Was looking at a PM1440 on ebay sold by qualitymachinetools. It weighs 1570 lbs so it must be a lighter version of yours. Just wondering what your opinion is of the quality of these machines. The listing I looked at included free shipping and:

PM-1440 Lathe, with 2 axis DRO Installed, 6" 3 jaw chuck, 8" 4 jaw chuck, 12" Face Plate, Taper Attachment, 5-C Lever Type Collet Closer, Thread Chasing Dial, Steady Rest, Follow Rest, Base, Foot Brake, Coolant System, Work Light, Quick Change Toolpost Set with 5 Holders, Live Center for the Tailstock, and High Quality Electronics

That seems to be lot for $4500.00. Wonder if it falls in the "too good to be true" category.
 
One point to keep in mind with concrete risers is 'flexibility'. Once the concrete riser is poured, it is there. It will not move 4" back and 2" to the left to allow the bar sticking out of the head stock to clear whatever. Being a Mfg. Engineer, I know something about having to "adjust" equipment locations, a little.
A technique I've worked with in setting up equipment in factories is to use a 1" thick steel plate anchored with expansion anchors. I have built risers out of 4" on up square and round pipe, cut to length, welded a plate on the one end and bolted these to the 1" base plates and welded a plate on top to mount the machine - fill the riser with concrete will help attenuate vibrations. I have seen where a form (1/4 steel sides) was made on top of a steel base, filled with concrete, with rebar and Nuts (read following ideas) concreted in place, this was then set on "floated grout" with a machinery level and anchored down, I never had a need for this but it is a great idea, accomplishes all the necessary goals - flexible, vibration damping, cheap, easy and quick to do (doesn't require hiring outside contractors). If vibration is an issue, there are a number of adjustable, rubber mounting solutions available on the market that work pretty well - try googling machinery mounts or google Thomas Register - then go to machinery mounts - thats what us Mfg. Engineers do.
Experience has taught me that the last thing I ever want to see is a 'poured' concrete riser for a mounting surface. Their real hard to adjust and or move. Also, I would not recommend pouring the mounting bolts in concrete, they are very difficult to get set straight and dead on, then you have to lift the equipment and set it down over them, without buggering up all the threads - how do I know this! What we found worked better (after we did one of the above)(scale this up or down as appropriate) was to weld a nut to the end of a pipe, weld 1/4" rods to the pipe and the nut - stick out on four sides. Weld another 4" piece of pipe to the other side of the nut with rods sticking out of it, mount this whole gizmo flush with the top of the concrete when poured. Now screw the 1" all thread or bolt into the nut on the pipe (this anchor will not pull out or spin and has some location flexibility - easier to locate four holes on a 3' x 15' rectangle than making sure a 6" rod is located and perfectly vertical on this rectangle while pouring concrete around them, you'll just have to trust me on that one). Now you can set the equipment and bolt it down, when you move it, just pour the holes full - this was a requirement and the plan.

Point is, Flexibility is key, you will want to move this thing, sooner or later, plan for it now. Hope there is something in here that is helpful.
 
As an ironworker, who has assisted in setting up factory floors and setting up machinery such as lathes and printing presses, your idea of an honest 4" slab (not 2x4 thick) with #4 rebar @ 12" on center will be more than sufficient to withstand the rigors and weight of your lathe and, BTW, would also carry it's own weight without shifting should the slab crack because of soil conditions. Very common occurence with slabs. The important part is that they don't shift or heave. For your elevation problem, since I don't think you forsee getting any shorter in the near future, pour an elevated slab (or for that matter, just an elevated perimeter) to set the lathe on. DO bolt it down, using red head drill in bolts with a double nut system to level on rubber cushioning, to eliminate any vibration which DOES affect bearing wear over time. DO rent a laser transit and level the LATHE bed working areas. That way even if the frame is slightly off or twisted, the working areas are not.
 
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flatlander said:
old#7 - I bought a heavy (just over a ton) Jet 13x40 four years ago and moved it into my attached 3-car garage/shop. I helped Dad form & pour the slabs for the floor in this garage, so I know they're only 4"-5" thick; we used steel mesh for reinforcement, which is much lighter than rebar. I had to re-level the Jet several times during that first winter, but the floor eventually settled to the point where I only needed to tweak it a bit with the changes in seasons. The last couple of years, it's checked out nearly perfect with an 98-8 Starrett machinist's level, with no adjustment needed.

This past fall, I started shopping for another lathe, and wound up purchasing a PM1440HD, which is nearly identical to the Jet, but weighs about 2500lbs. I set it up back-to-back within 20" of the Jet, which of course resulted in causing the Jet to move as the floor settled to accomodate the new lathe. I'd have been better off putting it farther away from the Jet, but my mill takes up the next bay over, so this was the best spot I could come up with. The floor seems to have settled already, as the last time I checked both machines with the level, they were spot on.

However, I'm more concerned with vibration than whether the floor will hold the lathes level. If I were doing it over, I'd have rented a concrete saw, cut out an area for two lathes, and dug down far enough to allow pouring a fiber-reinforced concrete pad about 10" thick. This would address my concerns about vibration.

As far as raising the lathe goes, I know what you mean about saving your back. After several hours of standing over the Jet while doing a barrel, my back feels somewhat strained. The PM sits just enough taller so that back strain hasn't been an issue. Or maybe it's just that I'm more relaxed while threading & chambering as I've gained experience, and it was tension that caused most of the back strain? Whatever - both these machines have foot brakes, and since I learned on them, I'm used to having the brake. I'm using the brake on the PM on a regular basis, as I've got it set up to cut metric threads. I'd hate to do anything that would make it harder to hit the brake in an emergency.
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What do you think of the PM1440HD?
I bought the PM1440 a couple of months ago.
 
wnroscoe said:
Steel reinforced concrete will move just the same as the soil moves underneath. The earth's funny that way ;) Ask any machinist that’s ever worked in the San Francisco Bay area. Steel moves with simple temp changes, do you really think your proposal is superior to those that are listed above. If so, please feel free to elaborate in detail, we all wait with anticipation of your superior knowledge :rolleyes:
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Pal, all our precision machines lathes, grinders, balancing machines, CNCs sit on steel reinforced concrete pads, that are totally separated free of the floor main slab. The fill under the concete pads is as follow.
The hole is fully lined up with a plastic sheet and that gets covered by 2" of dry compacted sand next 4" of golf ball size gravel vibrated and compacted with sand, next 4" is cherry size gravel vibrated and compacted with sand, next 8" is fine sand compacted in four separate layers of 2" at time. Layer of plasic sheet on top,1" thick hard foam rubber around the edges, 2 layers of reinforcing steel mesh and 6-10" thick 38 MPA vibrated concrete slab, that is perfectly leveled and burned and sits unloaded for 28 days! Keep in mind that all sand is rotory owen dried and most importantly we never had a single problem with any of our precision machines. Rad
 
Dave Tooley said:
Brainless ape. Maybe we'll meet some day.

Then I guess my superior skills as a rifle builder overcame that flimsy 4" slab my shop sits on.

I let my rifles and my customers do the talking for me.

Pal,What a crock of crap.


Dave
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Yes Pal, tht's why you hand out rifles with muzzle break front holes not fully drilled out and that's why you grind your chambers with reamers so blunt, that the throats need according to you some very drastic measures that you're not even willing to disclose to the customer. That's why you have these superior skills that are continuously so scared of the ring of your own phone.

Do you wanna meet?, than what you're going to do? You brainy skilled sunshine.
Make sure you've a roller garage door installed to your house as your brainy superior skilled head is so big that you won't get through the normal door to your home.Rad
 
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Rad Mrdal said:
Yes Pal, tht's why you hand out rifles with muzzle break front holes not fully drilled out and that's why you are continuously so scared of the ring of your own phone.

Do you wanna meet?, than what you're going to do? You brainy skilled sunshine.Rad
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You seem to be quite fond of sand and gravel. Why don't you take some of that oven dried sand and........."PACK IT".
 
Rad Mrdal said:
Pal, all our precision machines lathes, grinders, balancing machines, CNCs sit on steel reinforced concrete pads, that are totally separated free of the floor main slab. The fill under the concete pads is as follow.
The hole is fully lined up with a plastic sheet and that gets covered by 2" of dry compacted sand next 4" of golf ball size gravel vibrated and compacted with sand, next 4" is cherry size gravel vibrated and compacted with sand, next 8" is fine sand compacted in four separate layers of 2" at time. Layer of plasic sheet on top,1" thick hard foam rubber around the edges, 2 layers of reinforcing steel mesh and 6-10" thick 38 MPA vibrated concrete slab, that is perfectly leveled and burned and sits unloaded for 28 days! Keep in mind that all sand is rotory owen dried and most importantly we never had a single problem with any of our precision machines. Rad
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Sounds good but, it's a simple and well known fact that underneath it all, the earth is moving, constantly. So will the machines. Some will move slower than others but, the fact remains, they will move. This plaques Civil Engineers on a daily basis. Don’t you think this method of support would be over kill on a 14x40 or similar size lathe? That is in fact what this topic was covering before you flew in here spouting insults with an absolute zero in positive information.

What’s with everyone being your PAL? I for one am not.
 
Hey Rad, I've missed you! You wouldn't make a pimple on Tooley's Ass. You do a lot of talking and have not contributed anything to these forums. You have never built a pee shooter or run a hand drill let alone rifles and machinery. I will be at the Super Shoot, will you?
Butch
 
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adamsgt & old #7 - the bonus features (installed DRO, QC toolpost, taper attachment, collet closer) were what convinced me to go with the PM lathe. However, the main reason I was looking at this machine to begin with was that it appeared nearly identical to my Jet 13x40. It seemed logical to go with a lathe with the same control layout as the one I was used to, to avoid confusion when moving from one machine to the other.

After several months of using the PM, I've come to the conclusion that it is similar in quality to the Jet. However, I feel the Jet is a little less crude. The chucks that came with the PM are nothing special - but neither were the Jet's OEM chucks, which were both replaced under warranty with a pair of BTC chucks. The Sino DRO that came installed on the PM has been very accurate - I don't expect it to be as trouble-free as the Newall C80 I installed on the Jet, but only time will tell. It's entertaining in a perverse sort of way to try to decipher the Sino owner's manual - it appears to be written in chinglish or somesuch. However, after being spoiled by the C80, anything less was bound to disappoint.

I've got the PM set up to cut metric threads, and have trued a couple of Howa actions and barreled one of them on it. It does good, accurate work. If I had nothing else to compare it to, I'd probably not be grousing about anything but a few oil leaks. However, if I had it to do over again, I'd seriously consider going with the large Grizzly gunsmithing lathe instead. A friend bought a G0509G, and having run it a few times, I'm very impressed with its smoothness, controls, and mass. My main concern with the big Grizzly was that I wasn't sure my cherry picker/engine crane would lift it so I could roll it into my garage, and if it did, how would the 4" thick concrete floor stand up to a 3400lb. machine? Having to purchase another dozen or more CXA toolholders to fit the G0509G's larger QC toolpost was another issue.
 
old#7 said:
I like those blocks.
I have a piece of 3' diameter shaft (from a hydraulic cylinder) left over from a cannon project that may become feet.
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I wanna see the cannon!

Here's the one we built, 1" ID drawn over mandrel steam tubing. Odds/ends out of the local marina/machine supply, oak from a old desk out of a scrap box.

fincar1.jpg


fincar3.jpg
 
Yup George, that looks like a pic taken in Astoria!!:D

Good Sturgeon fishing though around the Megler Bridge.

al
 
This is a controversial subject.

I have a Precision Matthews PM1236 on order from Matt.
I am fixing up the shop in preparation.

When I got an engineering degree and went to work for Boeing 30 years ago, my brother got a machinist degree and went to work for JC manufacturing as a piecemeal machinist. He made twice as much money as I did for a long time.

Boeing would send out a purchase order to a bonafide shop with QA. The shop would buy material with certifications and bundle it with the drawing and have a third party, JCs, manufacture it. JCs that owned the machinery would split the money with my brother, who used the machines.

They never got any Aluminum jobs, but just the projects that were too hard to make for the other machine shops. Inconel and high strength stainless were the norm. Some of the parts were intricate with tight tolerances.

They never leveled any lathes.
The had them on felt pads.
 
Thickened slab

I bought a 16X60 Sebastian 6/7 years ago ( I aint a maschinist ) and set it up
in our garage shop. 4" slap complete w/cracks. Learned how to set it up via the internet. I managed to get it to cut pretty true and was really happy with my purchase.

Then one day I was making a new rudder post for the boat out of a prop shaft, had it all set up, and the wife backed in with the pickup and the indicator moved about 3/4 thou. Roll the truck out and things go back to norm.

I am a retired carpenter by trade and worked as a millwright for a while and set up a few pads like "Jackie" describes.

If I was setting up a typ garage shop for a lathe I would definetly pour a thickened/isolated slap with a double rebar matt. 8/10" thick Min.

Aloha, Les
 
Thickened slab

I bought a 16X60 Sebastian 6/7 years ago ( I aint a maschinist ) and set it up
in our garage shop. 4" slap complete w/cracks. Learned how to set it up via the internet. I managed to get it to cut pretty true and was really happy with my purchase.

Then one day I was making a new rudder post for the boat out of a prop shaft, had it all set up, and the wife backed in with the pickup and the indicator moved about 3/4 thou. Roll the truck out and things go back to norm.

I am a retired carpenter by trade and worked as a millwright for a while and set up a few pads like "Jackie" describes.

If I was setting up a typ garage shop for a lathe I would definetly pour a thickened/isolated slap with a double rebar matt. 8/10" thick Min.

Aloha, Les
 
lathe level

Go to the trouble to get a precision level and use it to level your lathe,for sure perpendicular to the bed. It will greatly affect how your cutting tool approaches the work as it travels along the longer pieces of work. I had this happen as I was recontouring a barrel. There was 004 difference in the center of the work as on the tail stock end.From there you can center the tailstock by making cuts at the headstock and tailstock and then adjusting the tailstock to make them equal..End to end level is not as important, but can still be done as part of the process. You can't always just set the lathe on a level floor and go for it.
 
Hey old #7 I'm a GC and a structural engineer a little more concrete under your lathe wont hurt a thing. My concern is if you bolt it down it may cause you some trouble. Take in mind that conrete is continuously expanding and contracting. So if your lathe is attached it will move with it. Most of the guy that responded don't have there's bolted down. LOT OF EXPERANCE THERE. And I believe that is a good thing just some good still blocking underneath and your ready to make chips. One more note make sure your blocking are level before you place the lathe on top of them. This is something that is over looked alot. Hope it go's well and good luck.

Poseybuilt
 
If I thought the lathe was going to blow away I would bolt it down,, You are trying to isolate the lathe from the floor not attach it. For most hobbyist a well leveled lathe will exceed their own ability to take advantage of any further accuracy that may be gained by futher installation. Rebar does not keep the concrete from being elasticor make it more rigid.. It keeps if from moving apart once it cracks. I would first set the lathe up and monitor it with precision level for a while to see how it moves. May be no further installation expense need be done.That being said,this is strictly an opinion.
 
I entered a large machine shop after military service in 1964. For the next 20 years I worked on machines that sat on large felt pads. Steel plates of various thickness were used to adjust the level by shimming between the floor and the felt pad. The process seemed to work fine. I am not saying that it is gospel, but I don't recall any issues with the system.. We also had monster multi station cold heading machines that weighed 100s of tons. Ladders and platforms were used to access these machines because of their size. Some pits were 8 ft deep X 20sq. and filled with concrete to support the massive machines. These were anchored with with large diameter threaded bars sunk into the concrete. I 've been in my own shop since the early 80's so I don't know what is in vague for anchoring the huge machines now...I still use the felt pads on my equipment, but I have the average sized lathes, mill and grinders..

Jerry
 
great info here....

this is a very interesting and informative line of posts. I have a Clausing 5413 to 'mount' and it is a 'bolt to base' type of leg mount. I was going to drill receiving holes in my garage slab,,,but now will look at it a bit different. Seems I was going to 'over engineer' the placement of my lathe.
Thanks for all the input you guys related here.
 
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