Lapua 220 Russian Primer pocket test

R

Richard

Member
This lot is P00860701/0470716

Just got 5 bxs in from powder valley and decided to see how they would hold up.
I shot 29.2 grs N-133 and 68gr C-Bar bullet at 3340 fps according to the lab-radar. Just used one case and would fire and reload that one case only.
Shot 20 times and never saw anything bad at all. There wasn't even a soot ring on the bolt face.
I realize that's only one case but it makes me feel better after hearing all the horror stories about this brass.

Richard
 
Richard said:
This lot is P00860701/0470716

Just got 5 bxs in from powder valley and decided to see how they would hold up.
I shot 29.2 grs N-133 and 68gr C-Bar bullet at 3340 fps according to the lab-radar. Just used one case and would fire and reload that one case only.
Shot 20 times and never saw anything bad at all. There wasn't even a soot ring on the bolt face.
I realize that's only one case but it makes me feel better after hearing all the horror stories about this brass.

Richard
Click to expand...

Now go do the same test with 30.3 grns of 133 at 3440 fps.

That's the load I have been shooting and winning my share with for years, with reasonably good case life. Untill about 1 1/2 years ago.

Accuracy is still there, but after 2 or 3 firings, the primers just about fall out.
 
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I will have to do that

but saying that, that same exact load would loosen primers pockets on a different lot of brass. After it was shot 3 times the primers would about fall out. It cut the bolt face. That tells me lapua has a quality control issue.
Look at my previous post about that.

Richard
 
Richard, I suppose in a way, this is not Lapua's fault. Years ago, Benchrest Shooters discovered that there was an accuracy node with the 6PPC that approached and went above 70,000 psi. We have been consistently pushing 68 gr bullets at velocities approaching 3500 fps out of a case that won't even hold 31 grns of a typical powder.

The rest of the shooting community probably considered this insanity.

We got away with it because of tight tolerances in actions and chambers, attention to detail in sizing Dies, and most of all, the Lapua 220 Russian Case.

Lapua never condoned any of this. It was one of those things we as Benchrest Shooters did. Nobody was getting hurt, the agging capability was phenomenal, and Benchrest Shooters just assume that as long as Lapua made that case, life would be good.

Lapua's official stance is that they have not changed a thing. And, by normal standards, they have not. I am sure their tests at sane pressures show case life to be excellent. Their response to the question I asked you, (shoot it at 3450), would be, "you are not supposed to be shooting any brass cased Rifle at the pressures you are shooting".

Keep in mind, any of us can still shoot in that upper window. The drawback is you take 50 cases to a typical Two Gun Event and after the final shot is fired, you just toss them into the trash can.

That is basically what I did last season. For the Nationals, (which I did not get to attend), I made up 125 new cases, all fired with two light loads and ready to go to the line. I was hoping to get through the 4 Gun with those.
 
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I shot 29.9 of N133 at the nationals and those cases are fine, also tried that upper node but it didn't work in my rifle so I didn't find out if multiple firings would loosen the primers.

Paul
 
I´ve had plenty of brownbox brass giving up prematurely, and some bluebox stuff acting strange as well.. No doubt that there has been some bad lots from time to time!

Anyways, has anyone been able to measure any difference between the good old lots . vs bad blue stuff? If the caseheads and primerpockets are the same before fireforming, and the new stuff falls apart efter just a few fireings, it should be easily measured with a micrometer. All my shooting stuff is packed away at the moment and I have no means to test myself.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Now go do the same test with 30.3 grns of 133 at 3440 fps.

That's the load I have been shooting and winning my share with for years, with reasonably good case life. Untill about 1 1/2 years ago.

Accuracy is still there, but after 2 or 3 firings, the primers just about fall out.
Click to expand...
,


Jackie,

The blue box 220 Russian case that I sent for testing was at least 3 to 4 years old. Since the problem for you only showed up about 1 1/2 years ago, would you be willing to send a newer blue box sample to Jason T for testing?

Jason T. Fridlund
1378 Patricia Avenue Unit #4
Simi Valley, CA, 93065

Michael
 
Very interesting topic!
I have not noticed any difference in the quality of Lapua 6BR brass since its introduction,
Be it Gold or Blue box.
Is it possible Lapua uses different brass formula in the .220 Russian?
That would be very impractical to say the least!

Sincerely yours,

Magnus Sigurdsson
Reykjavik
ICELAND
 
mturner said:
,


Jackie,

The blue box 220 Russian case that I sent for testing was at least 3 to 4 years old. Since the problem for you only showed up about 1 1/2 years ago, would you be willing to send a newer blue box sample to Jason T for testing?

Jason T. Fridlund
1378 Patricia Avenue Unit #4
Simi Valley, CA, 93065

Michael
Click to expand...

Michael,
Actually, it would be interesting to test cases which have suffered enlarged pockets after 3-4 shots; then, a comparison could be made with cases that didn't develop that problem.
Looking forward to reading about the test results.
 
There in nothing wrong with

this brass at all!! Shot over the lab radar at 3470 fps with 30.7 N-133 04 lot.
Shot the same case 15 times, primers got a little looser but not much. Not ever a soot ring on the bolt
Went to 3500 fps and fired 5 more, no issue whatever. I believe the radar, it compared fairly close to my Ohler.

I will never shoot that hot of a load, but was an interesting test.
As a side note, the load I talked about in the original post. I took that same case and have shot it 70 times and is still good. I think alot of the life of the brass has to do with a perfect chamber-sizing die combo. Which I have.

Richard Brensing
 
Richard said:
this brass at all!! Shot over the lab radar at 3470 fps with 30.7 N-133 04 lot.
Shot the same case 15 times, primers got a little looser but not much. Not ever a soot ring on the bolt
Went to 3500 fps and fired 5 more, no issue whatever. I believe the radar, it compared fairly close to my Ohler.

I will never shoot that hot of a load, but was an interesting test.
As a side note, the load I talked about in the original post. I took that same case and have shot it 70 times and is still good. I think alot of the life of the brass has to do with a perfect chamber-sizing die combo. Which I have.

Richard Brensing
Click to expand...

BOOM!!

Preach It Richard!

:)
 
Richard said:
this brass at all!! Shot over the lab radar at 3470 fps with 30.7 N-133 04 lot.
Shot the same case 15 times, primers got a little looser but not much. Not ever a soot ring on the bolt
Went to 3500 fps and fired 5 more, no issue whatever. I believe the radar, it compared fairly close to my Ohler.

I will never shoot that hot of a load, but was an interesting test.
As a side note, the load I talked about in the original post. I took that same case and have shot it 70 times and is still good. I think alot of the life of the brass has to do with a perfect chamber-sizing die combo. Which I have.

Richard Brensing
Click to expand...

If that's all it takes, could you share your Reamer Print and Die info. Heck, I will order the combo Monday.

Through the years, I worked to get what I thought was the perfect reamer/Die combo, and it allowed me to shoot in the upper window for 15 years+.
 
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Jackie, You

probably do have the right combo. You asked me to test this brass at the higher node which I did. It worked fine in my rifle. My question to you or anybody else for that matter, have you shot this particular lot of brass? If others have, what your results?

Richard
 
I get it that Lapua brass may be a bit "off" from the best they made but Y'all are comparing powder charges in different rifles. The cases may very well work fine at a particular charge in one rifle while not fine at all in another.

Just sayin'...
 
Wilbur,

that's why I posted the velocity, figured that would be more of an accurate test than powder comparison. Anyway, it will sure do the job at the more sane loadings that I use.

Richard
 
I don't know whether or not velocity mirrors pressure but it would seem that it does. The thing is, if your rifle won't "shoot" without going through a bunch of brass. then you've got to go through a bunch of brass. Alternatively, you can choose to lose!
 
Primer Pocket Report--To Jackie/Richard

My problem with brass in general is the clicking on extraction after multiple firings.
My solution has been to size the case further down on the web (0.441" at web after sizing)
This has stopped the soot marks/primer pox marks on the bolt, and the bolt lifts easy after firing.
I relate the above because I agree with Richard that you have a resizing issue.
2 sources to obtain sizing dies are 1.)Harrells---get their #4 6ppc die
2.) Jim Carstensens--JLC Precision will make you a proper
resizing die.
I shoot 3-5000 rounds/year in 6ppc and have not experienced primers falling out
I shoot mostly jam seating depth and 3300-3400 ft/sec---Shoot LT powder
I use 50 cases for practice and 25 cases for matches--this should last the life of the barrel
Case necks trimmed to 0.0084----chamber neck is 0.262---Case OAL trim length 1.495
I realize you're much more experienced than me but try resizing the web---I hope it works for you!!
CLP
 
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C.L. Peterson said:
My problem with brass in general is the clicking on extraction after multiple firings.
My solution has been to size the case further down on the web (0.441" at web after sizing)
This has stopped the soot marks/primer pox marks on the bolt, and the bolt lifts easy after firing.
I relate the above because I agree with Richard that you have a resizing issue.
2 sources to obtain sizing dies are 1.)Harrells---get their #4 6ppc die
2.) Jim Carstensens--JLC Precision will make you a proper
resizing die.
I shoot 3-5000 rounds/year in 6ppc and have not experienced primers falling out
I shoot mostly jam seating depth and 3300-3400 ft/sec---Shoot LT powder
I use 50 cases for practice and 25 cases for matches--this should last the life of the barrel
Case necks trimmed to 0.0084----chamber neck is 0.262---Case OAL trim length 1.495
I realize you're much more experienced than me but try resizing the web---I hope it works for you!!
CLP
Click to expand...

I was shooting next to Gene Bukys a few years ago at one of the Nationals in Phoenix. He took one of my pieces of brass and chose one of his size dies that he was selling at the time to give the size die to chamber fit needed. Since his move to Eden, Gene hasn't started back up making size dies yet. I built a new benchrest rifle for a new shooter in South Texas and sent a few fired cases to Harrell's for a sizing die for his rifle. When the rifle was finished, we checked how much his sizing die was sizing the brass by seeing how far the case head would protrude when fit into a Wilson trimmer shell holder after sizing and comparing it to a case sized in my Bukys die. Harrell's had sent me a #2 and a 2.5 die. I also had several #4 dies already in the shop. To get the case to fit into the shell holder to the same depth as what it did with the Bukys die, it took the #4 die to get the same case head protrusion. By now, he probably has his barrel about ready to be replaced before he ever fires his first match, but that #4 die took care of any case issues he might have had. I've seen us go from using Wilson neck sizers, to full length dies to tighter full length sizers since I've been shooting as powder charges have been going up all along. A lot has been made of having the die fit your chamber, but I think there's more to it than that. That size die almost has to size the hound out of that case if you're going to shoot the so called upper load nodes or you'll wind up with the bolt handle click extraction issue at the top of the bolt stroke. Cecil, after seeing what you had written, just thought I'd share with you the story about how we'd found that the #4 Harrell die worked very well. Having a die that works with your chamber is probably the most underestimated part of our sport and one of the hardest to get. Reamer diameter at the chamber web area can have a pretty big effect on whether primer pockets get loose as well. As will getting that reamer to cut as close to reamer size as possible when cutting the chamber. Everything has to work together.
 
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Mike Bryant said:
. Harrell's had sent me a #2 and a 2.5 die. I also had several #4 dies already in the shop. To get the case to fit into the shell holder to the same depth as what it did with the Bukys die, it took the #4 die to get the same case head protrusion. By now, he probably has his barrel about ready to be replaced before he ever fires his first match, but that #4 die took care of any case issues he might have had. I've seen us go from using Wilson neck sizers, to full length dies to tighter full length sizers since I've been shooting as powder charges have been going up all along. A lot has been made of having the die fit your chamber, but I think there's more to it than that. That size die almost has to size the hound out of that case if you're going to shoot the so called upper load nodes or you'll wind up with the bolt handle click extraction issue at the top of the bolt stroke. Cecil, after seeing what you had written, just thought I'd share with you the story about how we'd found that the #4 Harrell die worked very well. Having a die that works with your chamber is probably the most underestimated part of our sport and one of the hardest to get. Reamer diameter at the chamber web area can have a pretty big effect on whether primer pockets get loose as well. As will getting that reamer to cut as close to reamer size as possible when cutting the chamber. Everything has to work together.
Click to expand...

The first couple of years after I started shooting the 6PPC I didn't even own a f/l die. (I started with a 22 Waldog). Now, a couple of decades later I am up to 6PPC and a Harrell #5 die. Lynwood doesn't offer a #5 but he picked me one out that was tighter than a #4. But, now, I'm also up to 3,550 with the screens set 20' out. No wonder we complain about the new brass!

.
 
As well as having a FL die that size enough, I think it´s also a matter of sizing the case all the way to the bottom of the body. Several dies I have seen have such a big radius cut that they leave ~.100" of unsized brass at the bottom of the case... Not good!
 
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