Judgement,are these bullets exploding!

a.JR

New member
Hi all , What say you, the attached video shows a 10 shot target i shot on the weekend..Not all but most show a halo of smoke part the way down range .. The group is not horrible but not great either , The bullet is a 187 BIB in a 13.5 twist bartlien at approx 3300 fps..JR..Jeff Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOdzelKy8QQ..
 
This is a pic of the result,i would have thought if the jacket was splitting to leak lead then at least some of these bullets would not have made it there. This is not the case ,i have fired over 200 bullets down range during this season and my 10 match average is 8.0 ins with a best group of 5.2ins
 

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Hi Jeff,

I have no idea. Dave Tooley has done some work along these lines, and I doubt he checks BR Central these days. You might send him an email & ask him to have a look.
 
a.JR I think what you're seeing is more the sunlight making the vapor trail look worse than it is, because you'r video is from the side instead of over the top of the shooter. your shots all made it to the target, so I'd say light change.
 
Jeff,
does it really look like that if you view through a spotting scope? I ask cause, if it was a humid day, and the bullet was removing water vapor from the air, a camera would make that look a lot more pronounced than it would be to the naked eye. Depending on the way the light hits the vapor trail, it might look like a huge wash when it's really not. I'll email you an unrelated pic if I get a chance, it'll sorta show what i'm talking about.
 
Jeff,
All I see is the vapor trail. It appears that when the third flag switches to more of a head wind the trail is more visible, making it appear that there is more of a puff of smoke behind the bullet on those shots.
Nice target, did you hold for the wind or keep it on the x?

James
 
Jeff,
Based on my experieince of having bullets come apart.. what I saw in your video says it is water vapor and not the core/jacket coming apart. So I would have to agree with the other posters above at this time. The best way to describe it when lead is melting and leaking through a jacket fracture is to imagine taking a small amount of moly powder and throwing into the wind along the trajectory of the bullet. The cloud is dark colored and it will follow along the trajectory of the bullet for a small amount of time looking like a black streak through the air. Not just a small puff at one point along the trajectory. But... vapor trails will show streaks in the air also. So to me its more important to the color in this case and all I saw was white colored "smoke".
Now I have seen black puffs (not streaks) off from some bullets that all made it to the target. George Tompkins with his big 6.5 case would always leave grey puffs around the 100-200 yd mark. As far as I saw his bullets always got there.

You should talk with Joel Pendergraft and/or Charles Bailey if he is still around. I beleive both of them tried to really push the 187s up to and past the 3300 mark and did have bullet failures with certain twist barrels. I hope that info is accurate. You are getting close to where they had issues, so I would keep my eyes open in case we are all wrong in our evaluation of this video.
How many rounds down your bore and how rough is the throat right now? Take that into consideration also when figuring out if bullets are coming apart. The rougher the throat the more chance of a bullet coming apart.
Dave and I tested the leaking lead issue and comet tails appearing on a paper target at 25yds a couple years ago when the flat base 6.5 bullet we were playing with were coming apart on a regular basis. But those comet tails only showed up at very close range.

Steve
 
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Vapor trail or cloud

I'm curious what happens as the bullet decelerates through Mach 2, would that cause a cloud? - nhk
 
Thanks Charles,Joe , Phil and Steve, Yes it's a High humidity environment (above 75 percent) but was not a hot day at 90 deg.. The other cartridges on my relay show no signs of doing the same (1x 6BR and 1x 30. 284)..Only mine shows the halo but is 300 fps or so faster..The copper fouling has been severe with every barrel since 2003 but this Bartlien (only at 400 rounds now ) is the roughest against the cleaning brush after a target of all of them .. I have to use JB after each target .I use 11 sighters so with the BIB in a 32ins barrel at that speed i would expect copper fouling(i would like less).. I use a Tensioned barrel and the groups don't vary much as such so i will try going down in powder to about 3150fps and see if it fouls less ..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
Hi James ,It seems the concensus is a vapor trail ,thanks for your input.. As you can see the flag switchs happen quickly , it never stopped all day just going back and forth ,left & right ..What i saw in the sighters when flag 2&3 on the left hand side went from left to right to the straight away then the bullet would climb 1 minute high and 1/2 minute left ,when they turned on the right to left wind the bullet would just go about 1 and a bit minute's left of the X .. This is how i shot the record ,1st 4 i held the X ,shots 5&6 i held the bottom right hand corner of the white square and shots 7,8,9 and 10 i held level with the X at 3 oclock just inside the 10 ring .. It's 4 inch group just for the asking except for #5&6 which i did not hold down enough for ..All guns there got a bunch of vertical that day ,i was hoping i had worked it out by now ,BUT..JR..Jeff Rogers
Jeff,
All I see is the vapor trail. It appears that when the third flag switches to more of a head wind the trail is more visible, making it appear that there is more of a puff of smoke behind the bullet on those shots.
Nice target, did you hold for the wind or keep it on the x?

James
 
Hi Jeff,

When Joel was blowing the 187s it was in his original 1-10 twist rifle. They did not make it to the target -- I was at the range when he tried them with that rilfe, and the hole at 100 yards was awfully small. Problem was, it didn't get bigger with every shot. It was small enough it was hard to tell, but we think it was 2 out of 5 that blew.

I *believe* CB pushed the 187s to 3,400 in a 1-12 or maybe 1-13 with no failures. That was a long barrel, but heat's heat, no matter how you get it. CB hasn't shot with us in a number of years, and my memory fades. I think Joel regularly pushed them to 3,300 with his 32-inch, 1-12 Krieger. I pushed them over 3,200 in my 1:11 barrel when I had the .30 MHV, a case on the .404 but longer than the Dakota -- 2.75 inches, as I remember.

* * *
So much for history. If they are leaking lead, you should be able to see it on the target at 100 yards. There will be a black swash around part of the hole -- not the usual black ring, but a kind of tail. They can leak a little lead and not come apart, but as you would expect, accuracy is not good.

As Steve mentioned, Tooley did some testing, and was able to see that when bullets came apart, they were spewing lead around the beginning of the ogive. There is a lot of pressure on the jacket there, and if the core melts enough, the jacket won't take it.

I think you can damage bullets in various ways, to various degrees, for a number of reasons. With any of these forms of damage, accuracy suffers, as you'd expect.
 
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If you all recall i posted about Jeffs bullets a little while back. The humidity for the day was 63%, or about average for this time of year. No other bullets shot from other shooters rifles showed the trails or puffs. What you see on the youtube video is a distortion of what is really happening. There is a puff of blue smoke at between 100 and 150 yards downrange. The trail does not continue all the way downrange or even some further distance down range. It is short lived.
Originally this video was taken to see what may be causing the inconsistent vertical on our range. If you look at the target you will see the shots are numbered in order of shot. Numbers 5 and 6 are the two high shots and you can see that as Jeff fires the fifth, or just before it, the two taller middle flags at about 200 and 300 yards distant do a turn and start to show green. But later the flags go off back to red, but not quite all the way to where they were. Then they go off to green again for shots 8 and 9, but do not impact high like 5 and 6 did. Puzzling.
As seen by the video the conditions were not horrible and Jeff has shot way smaller in much worse. That is why the post, are the bullets loosing their grouping abilty due to a rough bore and lead leakage? I would have expexted a 4 inch group from Jeff on a day like this, but it went double that. No one really posted anything great on the day so we have mixed views on whether it is the bullets and the little blue puffs of smoke, or it was just one of those days where it looks easy but the little subtle changes caused more damage than one would expect. We will be doing the same thing next match and will hopefully post a video again..

Tony Z.
 
Tony & Jeff,
I would say the reason you are seeing this "smoke" on the 187s only and not other bullets being fired during the same relay is simply because of the FB designed bullet. I've spotted for Tooley many many times and those 187 FB bullet have a very large cone of what I call wash behind the bullet as compared to a similar weight BT bullet fired during the same relay. But the large cone is a lot smoother and symetrical as compared to a BT bullet. I swear that I can see a bullet with yaw based on the shape and movement of the wash under certain conditions. I can't prove this, jsut my thoughts. I've talked with Dave about it after I've seen it many times. But I have never seen the yaw movement with a 187 even out of different twist barrels. The cone is always very smooth and much more easily seen than any other bullet.

That is why I think you are only seeing this from Jeffs bulllets and not other competitiors bullets during the same relay.


Jeff,
Do you have anybody available to watch through a set of big eyes while you are firing your record string? With the right setup a good spotter can see vertical and horizontal change at the apex of the bullet flight. Might help determine where the vertical change is coming from on those shots in the future. Is it happening at or before the apex... or afterward further downrange.

hope this helps. Good luck with your yearly agg! Keep it small.

Steve
 
Hi All , Going to the range Saturday with some cartridges left over from last sunday , will put out a light paper screen at 25 yds with the barrel still fouled (at it's roughest)to see if there is any comet trail left on the paper.. From what HBC has told me it should be plain to see if the jacket is leaking.. Then clean the barrel spotless and shoot a group with a reduced load back to about 3150 Fps to see what happens.. Let ya know shortly..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
Jeff,

I think you're leaking molten lead out the hollow point and that's what produces the blue/gray puff. I think that a bullet leaking out a crack at the ogive/ bearing surface junction will generally burst in flight and if it did make it down range would be way out of the group from yaw. On the other hand, if the jacket doesn't crack along a pointing fold, heat from friction (high speed, long bearing surface) that would begin to melt cores could lead to molten lead leaking out the point under the extreme decelerative force of drag would more likely produce bigger groups from loose, slipping cores, variations in weight and loss of concentricity. Mike McNiell reported seeing this effect years ago at Hawks Ridge when Jerry Arrowood was shooting a very long barrelled 30/378 Imp with 240 SMK's at better than maxed out velocities. Burping bullets and mediocre groups was the result. Several years ago HBC poo-pooed this explanation on the basis that air pressure on the nose of the bullet would be sufficient to contain molten lead in the jacket and prevent its escape out the hollow point. But I still think otherwise. A little less heat in the bullet from a lighter load, a coated bullet, a smoother throat or shorter barrel is likely to drop you back below the threshold and restore the missing accuracy.

As Alinwa would say, opinion by...

Greg
 
Jeff
On the westcoast we don't have the humidity at all like the eastcoast shooters see and when we get a puff like in your video the bullet is toast.
If you scrub the bore spotlessly clean it gets worse until the barrel has some fouling in it.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Good barrel for bullet failure tests

Jeff sent a link to the video showing his "puffing" bullets. If further tests indicate that the bullets are actually failing when fired with normal loads through a fouled barrel then Jeff has a good barrel to test for bullet failures.

In Auguat of 2009 I posted a series of test results based on firing various bullet designs out of a good barrel with a clean and dry bore. The dry bore was employed to increase bullet to bore friction and to simulate an older barrel. The results are very interesting and can be found in the BRC archives by searching for user "HBC", checking the "Posts" button, which will bring up the title with 108 bullets with Retumbo. The series of posts are long and not well organized but there is no time to work on rewriting.

Among other results the tests indicate:

Bullet failure is more likely to occur on the first round out of a clean barrel with bore cleaner, oil, grease or conditioner remaining in the barrel.

Flat base bullets are much more likely to fail than a boat tail bullet of the same weight, same core and jacket, both made in the same dies.


Henry


BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF BULLET FAILURE TESTS



Tests conducted by firing gilding metal jacketed, lead core, hollow point, flat base bullets out of a clean and degreased bore (dry bore) resulted in somewhat surprising results. The rifle barrel was of high quality, good condition, 6 mm caliber and with a 10 inch rifling twist:

It was assumed that a dry bore would result in increased friction and thus simulate a bore roughened by the firing of many rounds in competition and thus result in more bullet failures to study.

Flat base bullets were chosen as the study projectiles because analysis indicated that higher friction would occur at the base of the bearing area of a flat base bullet than would occur at the base of the bearing area of a similarly designed boat tail bullet of the same caliber, jacket weight, core weight, bullet weight and the same ogive shape and ogive length. Bullet maximum acceleration at maximum chamber pressure, just beyond the barrel chamber, is on the order of 140,000 g's for 1000 yard BR loads with bullet acceleration at the barrel muzzle on the order of 15,000 g's, depending on load and barrel length. The bullet acceleration within the barrel induces pressure within the lead core thus forcing the jacket against the barrel bore. Greater core pressures would likely occur as the distance from the top of the core, in the ogive area, increased thus resulting in more bullet to bore friction and bullet heating at the base of the bullet bearing surface than at any other point on the bullet jacket (It can be argued that heat transfer from propellant gases through the base of the bullet is not the major source of bullet heating, if blow by of propellant gases past the bullet is not excessive. Results from tests not mentioned here provide some information on propellant gas blow by).

Test results for 116 grain and 121 grain flat base bullets fired at just below 3000 ft./sec. muzzle velocity resulted in 100% failure of bullets fired out of a dry bore. Bullet failure was indicated by molten lead spray impacting adjacent to the bullet hole in a paper screen placed 20 yards from the rifle muzzle. Each dry bore test was followed immediately by firing a second round identical to the first round through the fouled bore. None of the bullets fired out of a fouled bore failed (one might conclude that nitrocellulose fouling, which might include additives by the propellant manufacturer to reduce bore friction, is an excellent lubricant when compared to a dry bore and when compared, in other tests not described here, to lubricants, conditioners and cleaners used by shooters to clean rifle bores).

Further testing involved machining 3 degree boat tails of approximately 0.2 inch length in the jacket bearing area of the flat base bullets near the base of bullets where the test bullets were obtained from the same lot of bullets used in the dry bore tests described above. The bullets were fired out of a dry bore resulting in no failures of the modified bullets, modified with machined boat tails as described above. The machined boat tail bullet tests supports the conclusion, from previous analytical analysis, that higher bullet jacket bearing to bore friction with resulting higher bullet frictional heating occurs with higher core mass occurring within the bearing and ogive areas of the bullet. (Machining a boat tail in a bullet by removing jacket material near the base of the bullet might seem like a destructive modification to some shooters, however, analysis shows that stress in a bullet boat tail side wall, due to internal core pressure resulting from bullet acceleration and propellant gas pressure, is relatively low.) However the bottom of the bearing area of a flat base or boat tail receives significant frictional heating and in addition, receives heat flow into the bullet from the hot propellant gases.


Bullet failure, of course, is related to forces applied to the bullet including centrifugal force, stresses within the unsupported ogive jacket during maximum bullet acceleration and stresses in the bullet bearing jacket, unsupported by the barrel bore, as the bullet exits the muzzle. However it can be argued that bullet heating due to bore friction and heat transfer from propellant gases can, under certain normal conditions of barrel bores, result in sufficient jacket heating to weaken the jacket enough for normal forces to result in bullet failure.
 
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A summary of the bullet failure tests, conducted in 2009 and earlier years, was added at the bottom of the previous post.

Henry Childs
 
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