ITAR Registration

i was pretty sure the rule was "if you could..",
then you paid and itar...
it was never , if you did, it was if you can.
typical government bs.
 
Sorry I keep adding to this thread!

I spent 45 minutes on the phone with the Chief of the Compliance and Registration Office at the number listed in the first link provided. The recent announcement isn't a change but a compilation and guidance of what they've done in the past. There are no changes. The gist of the conversation was that if I were to do work for a buddy or two nothing would probably happen. If I did that regularly I'd have to register.

We discussed the 01 and 07 FFL's and he was really unaware that you can be a gunsmith with an 01. We looked here: https://www.atf.gov/file/82791/download and see that you can assemble a firearm including cutting threads for a receiver owned by someone else under an 01 and not be considered a manufacturer, under ATF rules. If you're buying the guns, actions, etc., assembling them and selling them you are considered a manufacturer.

He suggested submitting a letter to get guidance and explain that replacing a worn barrel on most firearms requires machining threads. His feeling was that they may not know processes exactly and that they may be more restrictive than they intend to be. In other words, since the ATF doesn't call someone a manufacturer simply because they thread a barrel maybe ITAR shouldn't either.
 
The ATF and State Department are two different entities. How one defines "manufacturing" may or may not be the same as the other defines it.
 
Rubicon Prec. said:
How one defines "manufacturing" may or may not be the same as the other defines it.
Click to expand...

They definitely are not defined the same. That's why he suggested sending a letter for guidance. He's opinion was that it's quite possible they'd adopt the ATF's definition given that one can affix a barrel (thread it) under a type 1 FFL rather than needing the manufacturers license.
 
Anyone can thread bbls.....
It is when you start playing with the part with a serial number
that issues occur.
Threading a receiver( recutting threads) on someone else's receiver
should also be a non-issue.

The whole idea that because i make a gun, and it is possible to export it,
thus requiring itar registration and fees is pure bs.


Nothing new we have been through this
 
CMaier said:
Anyone can thread bbls.....
..
Threading a receiver( recutting threads) on someone else's receiver
should also be a non-issue.
Click to expand...

According to the guy I spoke with this is indeed considered manufacturing. I specifically asked about threading barrels for fitting to an action or a muzzle brake. If you have to machine anything it's considered manufacturing according to the State Department. It explicitly says if you machine threads on the barrel it's considered manufacturing and you must register.
 
It's all about the money and control. I'd suggest writing to your congressmen and seeing if they can get something done about it and probably even if they did pass a bill to make it easier on gunsmiths, it would probably get vetoed with what we have in office now. ITAR was set up for exporting. Evidently they have branched out to areas that shouldn't concern them. Here is the link to the BATF's 2010 ruling on gunsmiths doing manufacturing. It appears to me that we are dealing with two different agencies with conflicting rules for what is considered manufacturing.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2010-10-manufacturing-operations-maybe-performed-licensed-gunsmiths-under/download

The pertinent part from the above link is copied below:

Gunsmithing
A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.

On a separate link to the 50 gun exemption for paying the Federal Firearms and Ammunition excise tax. If you produce under 50 firearms in a year, there is no FAET due on those firearms. However, if you produce 51 firearms in a year, then you pay the FAET on all 51 firearms. https://www.ttb.gov/firearms/faet-faqs.shtml
 
Elmer T. said:
It appears to me that we are dealing with two different agencies with conflicting rules for what is considered manufacturing
Click to expand...

Exactly. The State Department doesn't define manufacturing like the ATF does. They rely on a "standard" definition and their interpretation is any machining is considered manufacturing. He said writing to them and explaining how replacing a worn out barrel on a rifle usually requires some sort of machine and, therefore, couldn't be done under their definition without being registered. He said they could "re-interpret" if what they're doing is putting undo burden on a gunsmith's job. Or something like that.
 
Under heading a) in the link provided in the first post:

Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or
exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is
required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2.

If you're in the business of manufacturing OR exporting you must register. They essentially define manufacturing as anything involving cutting of metal such as threading a barrel. It specifically mentions threading a barrel.

According to them, firearms are considered defense articles.
 
pablo said:
Does the State Dept. have jurisdiction over this if the work isn't performed for export?
Click to expand...

Absolutely!

§122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

This does not apply to just metalwork, it applies to anything covered in the munitions list. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf

Take a look at page 2 CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS. Also take a look at section (h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this category. It looks to me like it says if you are engaged in the business of making anything for a firearm you are subject to ITAR.

This can include stocks. Are you in the business of making stocks for sale? You are subject to ITAR. A well known chassis maker has stated he was convinced by the govt that he should register.
 
truly taxation without representation..as they are unelected.

i am glad i am not in this business.

ya know in the 90's when tax protestors were dispatcthing
irs agents, the irs finally got the news, and revised their
poor behavior.

if you do not learn from history, you are bound to repeat it.
 
WSnyder said:
Absolutely!

§122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

This does not apply to just metalwork, it applies to anything covered in the munitions list. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf

Take a look at page 2 CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS. Also take a look at section (h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this category. It looks to me like it says if you are engaged in the business of making anything for a firearm you are subject to ITAR

This can include stocks. Are you in the business of making stocks for sale? You are subject to ITAR. A well known chassis maker has stated he was convinced by the govt that he should register.
Click to expand...


These documents keep referring to "DEFENCE ARTICLES and DEFENCE SERVICES. From what I've read a lot of ffl's are getting poor direction from the same guys who fan these fires.

For you guys that are contacting some desk jockey about such regulation, my take is you're asking for answers in a way tat they will say yes you have to register.

If you call and ask if you have a 07 license then you are gonna pay. Get rid of the 07 an just be a lowly gun smith.

These postings and letters and poor advice are all ignoring the fact this only covers ITAR weapons that are to be used by militaries and sold to foreign governments, to arm their troops.

The mill drill stock crown, ydaydayda, is worded as to include these procedures with regards to "DEFENCE ARTICLES and
DEFENSE SERVICES"

It appears that i you were to dump your 07 and back to 01, all this would away.

If you currently have an 07 license, you should have known the ramifications you were going to be faced with.

Realisticly, if you run a machine shop you do all those operations every day just as FN, Baret, Beretta, you are not obligated to register and pay. If you want to be a manufacturer of weapons, like them, and build and "Export Defence Articles and Services", ..you're going to pay. If you have an 07 or higher it's up to you to pay it, or get back down to reality
 
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Go read the new definition
If you machine a bbl you need itar registration.
Muzzle brake, chamber,anything other than scope mounting requires.
Pure bs as it has nothing to do with export or defense.
Strictly taxation

TRA said:
These documents keep referring to "DEFENCE ARTICLES and DEFENCE SERVICES. From what I've read a lot of ffl's are getting poor direction from the same guys who fan these fires.

For you guys that are contacting some desk jockey about such regulation, my take is you're asking for answers in a way tat they will say yes you have to register.

If you call and ask if you have a 07 license then you are gonna pay. Get rid of the 07 an just be a lowly gun smith.

These postings and letters and poor advice are all ignoring the fact this only covers ITAR weapons that are to be used by militaries and sold to foreign governments, to arm their troops.

The mill drill stock crown, ydaydayda, is worded as to include these procedures with regards to "DEFENCE ARTICLES and
DEFENSE SERVICES"

It appears that i you were to dump your 07 and back to 01, all this would away.

If you currently have an 07 license, you should have known the ramifications you were going to be faced with.

Realisticly, if you run a machine shop you do all those operations every day just as FN, Baret, Beretta, you are not obligated to register and pay. If you want to be a manufacturer of weapons, like them, and build and "Export Defence Articles and Services", ..you're going to pay. If you have an 07 or higher it's up to you to pay it, or get back down to reality
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
WSnyder said:
Absolutely!

§122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing defense articles, or furnishing defense services, is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls under §122.2. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

This does not apply to just metalwork, it applies to anything covered in the munitions list. http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf

Take a look at page 2 CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS. Also take a look at section (h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this category. It looks to me like it says if you are engaged in the business of making anything for a firearm you are subject to ITAR.

This can include stocks. Are you in the business of making stocks for sale? You are subject to ITAR. A well known chassis maker has stated he was convinced by the govt that he should register.
Click to expand...

The point of my post was to point out that if it doesn't involve import or export the State Dept has no say in it. They have a limited and narrow jurisdiction. If you read the law and the highlighted parts about defense you can see that is what the law pertains too. Calling someone at the State Dept and asking them about it is stupid, if you communicate with them, it should be done in a very specific written manner by Certified US Mail. I bet their answers will be a whole lot different than any bs they shovel on the phone.

If this came down from the ATF then we have a problem, the ATF has jurisdiction on what happens here.
 
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