IR 50/50 Sporters

[MaxxPower]

looks a lot like the front of another lads there was so much hate and discontent over a couple of years ago. a shame to drive folks out of the sport on stupid stuff like this.

Pete

The bumpers on that stock are clearly convex as required by IR5050 rules. I've seen it and admired Jeremiah's work as well.

Convex bumper rules are not "stupid". They are part of what makes a sporter a sporter.

I imagine in your mind sporter scope power rules should be something like "not so big".

 

[tonykharper]

I along with others were remiss in not mentioning the gunsmith who built the rifle that won this years Sporter Indoor Nationals. Jeremiah Mohr built Jasons rifle, along with others, & all preformed extremely well.
He also builds some of the most elegant stocks on a sporter I'd ever seen. I wish I'd taken pictures of Jason's & his rifles. Hopefully someone can post a picture of Jason's or his guns.
I'm pretty partial to Pippen stocked Eck sporters, as are many. But there's a new Sheriff in town if someone's looking for a winning sporter!

Keith
edit: I found a picture Jason had sent a while back but I'm not sure if this was the same rifle he won with. Maybe he'll chime in.

Keith,

You bring up an interesting point. Sporter development pretty much came to a stop many years ago when Gordon Eck set the world on fire with his

Turbo action, Pippin stocks, and Broughton barreled sporters.

They won everything and became the standard. With few exceptions nothing else could compete against these rifles.

The only other major player was Calfee, and he made very few sporters. The most notable was one he built for DJ. Although DJ never shot it much.

Then there was TD Junior, and another he built for Tim Miller. I'm sure he built others but not many.

Can't leave out Bruce Hornstein's sporter, he has won everything with it.

My point is time has moved on, and all the smiths that built these rifles have got tired, lazy and quit!!! (yes, that is a challenge, get off your butt and build something!)

Enter new players like Jeremiah Mohr. Thank goodness we have people like him coming on to the scene.

Will he move the bar forward? I think so. Maybe it is time to build some new, state of the art, sporters.

TKH

 

[tim]

looks a lot like the front of another lads there was so much hate and discontent over a couple of years ago. a shame to drive folks out of the sport on stupid stuff like this.

Pete

It would be helpful, friend Wass, if you actually dealt in facts.....for once.
What does " looks like" mean ? Hate? Discontent ? How about rules and the folks that adhere to them ?

 

[Pete Wass]

I dont think

The bumpers on that stock are clearly convex as required by IR5050 rules. I've seen it and admired Jeremiah's work as well.

Convex bumper rules are not "stupid". They are part of what makes a sporter a sporter.

I imagine in your mind sporter scope power rules should be something like "not so big".

you know the rifle and stock I was referring to. I don't think the Sporter stock rule is stupid, by any means but the situation ai was referring to was stupid, in my opinion. and thats all the facts I need to have an opinion.

Pete

 

[Kent Owens]

I haven't kept up with what the actual sporter rules are any more. I recall they did away with safeties, not sure if it has to be a working repeater any longer or not. I do know, I dearly loved the sporters and shooting them as well. A challenge for sure. Beautiful stock on the rifle in the pic.

 

[tonykharper]

I haven't kept up with what the actual sporter rules are any more. I recall they did away with safeties, not sure if it has to be a working repeater any longer or not. I do know, I dearly loved the sporters and shooting them as well. A challenge for sure. Beautiful stock on the rifle in the pic.

Kent,

They did do away with the safety requirement and reworded the "working repeater paragraph" saying sporters had to have a clip holding at least two rounds.

This watered down the original idea of being an actual sporter (sporting) rifle. This was an attempt at getting more people to build and shoot sporters.

I don't think it has worked. Watering down rules rarely does.

Purist accept the challenge and choose to participate because of the challenge not because of the lack of one.

The good news is many of the sporters winning today were built to meet the original rules.

Many of the Eck sporters are still shooting as good as ever.

Bruce is still winning with the Falcon sporter you built.

TD Junior still meets the original requirements as it did 9 years ago when Bill Calfee built it.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, and I think you will agree. Sporters, winning sporters, are the most highly developed rifles we compete with today.

If you want the most difficult, but rewarding, challenge in RFBR shoot a sporter.

TKH

 

[Kent Owens]

Tony, I definitley agree about the dificultly, and wee bit of guessing involved, and reward of shooting a sporter well. Lots of folks never liked sporters because they never shot one that was hitting on all cylinders, ie. a good one. LOL I no longer compete, but still have some good sporters. Last one I built for myself, shot one match and won with a 250 first time out, hasn't been fired since. I just love rimfires. LOL

 

[SteveP92]

I have been bitten by the sporter bug! In June I bought a sporter from a friend at Kettlefoot and a Burris 6X scope from a forum classifieds section. I had read about the sporters and was very happy to finally own one. It is probably the most rewarding gun I have shot. Testing ammo and getting a proper zero was challenging. Everything about it was a learning experience. I have been shooting unlimited for 2 years, so the 2 piece rest with sandbag front and rear added to the learning curve. I had planned to shoot a couple of sporter matches during the summer but surgery on my arm prevented me from shooting the matches.

The first match I ever shot with my sporter was the National Yards and Meters at Kettlefoot. Then the next day I shot the 3 Gun Nationals. Those 2 days shooting the sporter was fun. Ever time that I hit a 10 or X was very rewarding. I learned a lot shooting that weekend and met some very nice competitors. I am looking forward to the next time I can shoot a sporter match till then I will have fun practicing and ammo testing. Thank you to everyone for your advice and friendship at the matches that weekend.

If someone is looking for a challenge and the most rewarding rifle class to shoot they need to try the Sporter.

See you at the range.
Steve Pennington


I

 

[tim]

I have been bitten by the sporter bug! In June I bought a sporter from a friend at Kettlefoot and a Burris 6X scope from a forum classifieds section. I had read about the sporters and was very happy to finally own one. It is probably the most rewarding gun I have shot. Testing ammo and getting a proper zero was challenging. Everything about it was a learning experience. I have been shooting unlimited for 2 years, so the 2 piece rest with sandbag front and rear added to the learning curve. I had planned to shoot a couple of sporter matches during the summer but surgery on my arm prevented me from shooting the matches.

The first match I ever shot with my sporter was the National Yards and Meters at Kettlefoot. Then the next day I shot the 3 Gun Nationals. Those 2 days shooting the sporter was fun. Ever time that I hit a 10 or X was very rewarding. I learned a lot shooting that weekend and met some very nice competitors. I am looking forward to the next time I can shoot a sporter match till then I will have fun practicing and ammo testing. Thank you to everyone for your advice and friendship at the matches that weekend.

If someone is looking for a challenge and the most rewarding rifle class to shoot they need to try the Sporter.

See you at the range.
Steve Pennington


I

We need more guys like you.
Absolutely the most fun/challenging RFBR shooting possible. Spread the word.

 

[tonykharper]

We need more guys like you.
Absolutely the most fun/challenging RFBR shooting possible. Spread the word.

Steve,

I would like to echo what Tim said. We need more like you.

I remember you from the Nats. Somehow I left before getting to talk to you.

You shot really well, and I realize you are a force to be reckoned with.

I look forward to seeing you on the firing line.

TKH

 

[tim]

Tony, I definitley agree about the dificultly, and wee bit of guessing involved, and reward of shooting a sporter well. Lots of folks never liked sporters because they never shot one that was hitting on all cylinders, ie. a good one. LOL I no longer compete, but still have some good sporters. Last one I built for myself, shot one match and won with a 250 first time out, hasn't been fired since. I just love rimfires. LOL

There is that but the elephant in the room is that a ton of guys, particularly older guys, just have a tough time with a 6X scope, especially the guys that will not invest in a first class optic.....one you can get ALL the parallax out.
Nobody’s eyes get better with time and the average shooter ain’t getting any younger out there in IR 50 land.

 

[tonykharper]

There is that but the elephant in the room is that a ton of guys, particularly older guys, just have a tough time with a 6X scope, especially the guys that will not invest in a first class optic.....one you can get ALL the parallax out.
Nobody’s eyes get better with time and the average shooter ain’t getting any younger out there in IR 50 land.

Tim,

I agree with your points.

But let's face it, we have become spoiled with the high power scopes.

I remember shooting BR 50 with 16 and 24X scopes. Then we moved on to 36 power, then to 40-45 power, and now we are at 55-60X.

We expect to see every speck on the target. Back when I started shooting I learned to target shoot with a peep sight, many others did as well.

I shoot my sporter's 6.5X scope very much like a peep sight. I have a medium size dot. I center the dot in the middle of the large black rings on the IR 50 target.

No, I can't hardly see the really thin crosshairs in some scopes.

Since I can't see the smaller rings on the target holding off is a matter of judgement of how far off of center I'm holding. Just like a peep sight.

When you have to hold off quite a lot, and you fire the shot, and look thru the spotting scope and see you took out the center dot.

A dot you could not even see, it feels like a gift from god. That is what makes shooting a sporter special.

If you look at it from a perspective of being able to see all the target detail you would with a more powerful scope you are missing the point.

Yes, I think the younger guys have a slight edge, but it is only slight.

It is all in the challenge.

TKH

 

[PedroS]

Very interesting thread.

I agree with TKH approach on judging the POA on sporter class.
Some guys, during a match, always comment/complaint that they shot better in sporter than on LV/HV. It had also happened to me in the past.
I took quite an in-deep thought at it, and used my previous shooting disciplines experience on sighting, focusing the reticle over the target, floating pin vs fixed aiming, and so on...
I do agree that on sporter we are more relaxed on sighting, as we can not see well the target, and concentrate more on all other firing aspects, mainly release and followthrough.
And there's another very important factor that plays with our subconscious... the acceptance of missing.
On sporter that acceptance is much bigger, broadening our comfort zone. With bigger magnifications your subconscious brain conditioning is so high, just because the target is so big, that it cannot be missed, that the pressure builds up to a point where it disrupts your comfort zone and ability to stay in focus. When you perceive this happening, a different training approach is needed. And if you succeed, a growing process is established.
Hope this makes sense.

 

[tonykharper]

Very interesting thread.

I agree with TKH approach on judging the POA on sporter class.
Some guys, during a match, always comment/complaint that they shot better in sporter than on LV/HV. It had also happened to me in the past.
I took quite an in-deep thought at it, and used my previous shooting disciplines experience on sighting, focusing the reticle over the target, floating pin vs fixed aiming, and so on...
I do agree that on sporter we are more relaxed on sighting, as we can not see well the target, and concentrate more on all other firing aspects, mainly release and followthrough.
And there's another very important factor that plays with our subconscious... the acceptance of missing.
On sporter that acceptance is much bigger, broadening our comfort zone. With bigger magnifications your subconscious brain conditioning is so high, just because the target is so big, that it cannot be missed, that the pressure builds up to a point where it disrupts your comfort zone and ability to stay in focus. When you perceive this happening, a different training approach is needed. And if you succeed, a growing process is established.
Hope this makes sense.

Pedro,

You got down to the point and explained a phenomenon that many have experienced but few have understood.

You have given great insight into the psychology of shooting, a subject we rarely discuss.

Thank you for joining this thread and adding your insight with such clarity.

TKH

 

[tim]

Tim,

I agree with your points.

But let's face it, we have become spoiled with the high power scopes.

I remember shooting BR 50 with 16 and 24X scopes. Then we moved on to 36 power, then to 40-45 power, and now we are at 55-60X.

We expect to see every speck on the target. Back when I started shooting I learned to target shoot with a peep sight, many others did as well.

I shoot my sporter's 6.5X scope very much like a peep sight. I have a medium size dot. I center the dot in the middle of the large black rings on the IR 50 target.

No, I can't hardly see the really thin crosshairs in some scopes.

Since I can't see the smaller rings on the target holding off is a matter of judgement of how far off of center I'm holding. Just like a peep sight.

When you have to hold off quite a lot, and you fire the shot, and look thru the spotting scope and see you took out the center dot.

A dot you could not even see, it feels like a gift from god. That is what makes shooting a sporter special.

If you look at it from a perspective of being able to see all the target detail you would with a more powerful scope you are missing the point.

Yes, I think the younger guys have a slight edge, but it is only slight.

It is all in the challenge.

TKH

Tony,

I , like you, have always approached the sporter with it’s 6X, much like shooting a receiver sight. I think the higher power advocates tend to miss this very simple premise much to their detriment.
I tend to believe the real art of sporter shooting is the fine art of “ hold off “ shooting given the reality that many ranges, including my home turf, require more than a few bulls to be shot without ability to hold dead center.
It goes against the current grain of ,only one piece rests, under the lights, heavy guns, high power optics, etc.
The beauty of 2 guns required for a true 3 gun agg, shot over sand bags, the way God intended.
It’s tough, because it is supposed to be tough.

 

[tonykharper]

Tony,

I , like you, have always approached the sporter with it’s 6X, much like shooting a receiver sight. I think the higher power advocates tend to miss this very simple premise much to their detriment.
I tend to believe the real art of sporter shooting is the fine art of “ hold off “ shooting given the reality that many ranges, including my home turf, require more than a few bulls to be shot without ability to hold dead center.
It goes against the current grain of ,only one piece rests, under the lights, heavy guns, high power optics, etc.
The beauty of 2 guns required for a true 3 gun agg, shot over sand bags, the way God intended.
It’s tough, because it is supposed to be tough.

Tim,

We are in perfect agreement.

It is the challenge, you either accept it, or you don't.

It is good we have different levels of difficulty in RFBR. If we didn't we would have even less shooters than we do today.

Pick your poison, and enjoy your shooting. I'm just glad we still have some around that choose to take the more difficult road.

TKH

 

[BillBrawand]

pedro,

you got down to the point and explained a phenomenon that many have experienced but few have understood.

You have given great insight into the psychology of shooting, a subject we rarely discuss.

Thank you for joining this thread and adding your insight with such clarity.

Tkh

boys dont forget you better lear how to hold or never will afcomplish much. It is the one of the most impportant things in shooting bill b.

 

[BillBrawand]

i don't think you are mistaken...i thought it was a kimber but didn't know for sure so i didn't say it.

i met claude at fairchance later again at johnson city tnn he shot that rifle there and did quite well.

 

[MaxxPower]

An alternative appoach to find your best Sporter hold

I shoot a Leupold Competition Hunter. (straight 6X). It comes with their Target Dot reticle. I'm not sure if it's their smallest dot but it's nice and small.

I don't hold in the center of the bull. Since I cant see the lines on the bull at 6 power all that I see is a big white empty space with nothing to consistently put my dot on. Especially after several targets aiming for the center of all that white space is a dicey business in my opinion. And God forbid you have to hold of a little (or a lot). I think a lot of Sporter misses come from the vagaries of holding off in that big white circle with 6 power scope.

So, I only use the big outer circles since I can see them clearly and consistently. My ideal hold is the dot down at 6 o'clock and half-way into the black. To confirm this I use the horizontal lines on the reticle to see them just disappear into the black on the bull to the right. I think my scope is about 10 clicks up from center hold to set it up at the bottom like this.

But wait.. there's more! This hold (just talking about vertical now) can give you 5 very repeatable holds:
1. Dot just touching the black ring
2. Dot half-way into the black ring
3. Dot completely in the black ring (the Leupold dot fits the height of the black rings perfectly
4. Dot half-way out the bottom of the black rings
5. Dot just touching the black rings at the bottom.

This method also allows you to easily find the vertical center of each bull. Using method 5 from above you can easily tell when the top of the dot touches the bottom of the big circle. That's your center. Then you can come up to any of the holds that work and you're good. Once you're comfortable with these holds it's also easy to consistently move to your left/right hold-off as well.

So, what about using the small sighters on the sides? If you're not holding in the center how to adjust for the dramatic hold on the bottom? I line up the dot for my hold on the record bull and then slide over to the sighter and confirm that the horizontal lines on the reticle are where they should be on the record bull.

I find the small sighters most useful for checking my tracking and set-up of my rifle. I put the dot in the center of a small sighter and watch the shot. I want the dot to remain centered in that small sighter. If it isn't then I need to check my rear bag and anything else that might affect tracking.

Lastly, I never watch my record shots through the scope as I shoot. I either watch the flags if I'm outside or close my eyes if I'm inside, listen to my music and let the trigger break be a surprise.

Bruce Hornstein

 

[Pete Wass]

I've never made shooting complicated

I've shot more 6X Benchrest over the past 20 some years than anything else and had some success at it. I've never made holding off complicated or I wouldn't have been able to do it. Those who make the excuse of not being able to see through a 6X scope are simply convincing themselves they can't see. I shot right through when my cataracts were so bad I could not see any detail at all with my left eye. I've never been very good with a higher powered scope. I've found the holdoffs to be so different between the difference in scope magnification for me, I tend to hold off too much with a higher powered scope. I have always preferred to shoot 6X scopes all through the years and continue to. I built an new Heavy rifle last year for CF games but loan it to a friend to shoot almost all the time. I really don't like seeing the number of Sporter shooters decreasing. 6 power is growing again in IBS.

Pete